FLYING TURNS TRAINS

Is the trough that much tighter? It really doesn't look much different to me. I was thinking of Chuck's idea as well. Sit low, recline a little and raise the side walls a bit.

Of course maybe the original seating position is important to Dick. How 'bout you slide your arms into sleaves as part of the restraint kinda like on some go-karts.

What will the maintenance requirements of the trough likely be like?

*** Edited 8/31/2006 3:58:51 PM UTC by Raptor Pilot***

Every morning they go out and run a Swiffer over it.

/\ I hope they go with the "Open Window-Fresh Scent" as well.

http://knoebels.com/images/page/Turns07_20.jpg
That guy in the pic looks as if hes possibly measureing how tight the trains will navigate the trough, and it seems quite a bit more then his arm-span, but still somewhat tight

I volunteer to go out every morning and poke the leaves through the small holes in the track that are there for water run-off. I guess I can do that while Swiffer-ing.

The things I do for you people... ;)

Undoubtedly, Knoebels *preference* would be to replicate the old-style trains. Mine too. I hope they are able to do *whatever it takes* to keep the OTSRs away. If not, I'll have LOADS of fun on the ride anyhow... :)

As long as the OTSR's aren't tight, I don't see them being too much of a problem. It's not like Flying Turns rides were known for airtime. I can see them being intended to merely keep the riders in their places. And I'm pretty sure the trough is narrower than that on a bobsled.

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Rob Ascough said:
Straightjackets.

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Duct tape. Lots of it.

How about these cars?

http://www.riverviewparkchicago.com/generic24.html

So what if they use OTSRs? I'm sure the crews will load, check retraints, and dispatch trains as quickly as they do on "that crap ride with little airtime and a boring layout." With this ride, I think they will have to be pretty quick to keep cars moving without stacking.

If you look at the second picture with the cars going around the turn, you can see how a rider with long arms could easily reach outside of the car and touch the top of the trough.

But you can touch the handrails on a standard wood coaster too. So what's the difference?

Not sure. But apparantly Knoebels sees this as a problem.

Just a thought...maybe it's because the train doesn't ROLL on the handrails? Thinking is that the real *danger* area would more likely be the "bottom side" of the trains...the side closer to the bottom of the trough, not the side closer to the edges....

Until Steve Okamoto joins John Fetterman in posting, we're all just guessing... :)

That could be the reason why. If it's possible to touch the edge of the trough, I'm sure it's just as possible to touch the bottom of it when the car is banking.

But why would touching the bottom of the trough be anymore of a problem? I don't see it.

We have tossed around many ideas about passenger restraint. The whole thing remains in a flux; the devil is in the details. Yes, there are many examples of rolling stock for this or that which is "like" what we need, but "like" does not imply that it is identical, and so we are keeping our powder dry until we have a three-dimensional example available.

In the past, I have explained some partial notions to various people, and apparently made a good impression about that particular "spin" of what is likely to appear on the Turns trains. But as we ponder and weigh all aspects of our needs and desires, other approaches rise or fall in their attractiveness.

While we do not have an accurate description of the approach we will use cast in pinpoint concrete at this time, we believe that the important fact is that we have many options available; that we will have to make some concessions to practicality to complete the job; and that in order to minimize the degree of compromise we refuse to commit to any final design at this time.

Now that I have completely bored everyone with some serious lawyerbabble, here are some concrete notions to share. Prop the eyelids open and read on.

OTSRs are a notion which I have "championed" in the past (re-read the part above about compromises), although I felt that an OTSR on a Turns car would be functionally quite different from one appearing on a steel coaster going two or three times as fast, with five or ten times the amount of energy being tossed about. At this time, we are leaning away from the use of an OTSR, but have not put a stake through it (again, read above about not finalizing until we can analyze the devil's details).

We pondered the use of a tee bar, a la Mack's bobsled ride, but the devil's geometry will not allow this if we insist upon keeping patrons apart from each other. If we return to the Bartlett concept of true tandem seating, a tee bar might do the job, since passenger legs now splay out flat and the knees do not get in the road of the swing of the tee bar. But we now lose the ability to seat Billy Bob and Jimmy in the same car, unless they really like each other. Also, there may be other reasons to avoid the true tandem seating which the devil keeps hidden until we get really serious about trying this approach back on for size.

The sides of the car will be taller than the original. Oooh, bad??? Well, yes, compared to the original, unless... we really do have a lot more structure toward the inside of the trough than the original Bartlett rides did. That's the area up above the rider's head. Like up there where nobody can reach, but still close enough to emphasize just how close stuff is and how fast you are going and how disorienting it is... and so on. Is it a compromise? Certainly is for somebody looking for one (another boring layout, etc.). But for the people who will be expected to pony up the $$$ to pay for our gambit? Certinaly not.

Irony alert: the captain has warned that there is a substantial patch of irony ahead and all passengers are asked to return to their seats and be smugly amused.

The approach which currently has the greatest appeal at this time is not a done deal, since we have to invent the details in this durned devil once again, but it would be nice to have a lockable seat belt restraint to keep butts plastered where they should be. Not a standard Beams belt which is available to any passenger, NAARSO certification or not, to flip open and experience nirvana or whatever; not a buckle with a sheathe requiring a special tool to punch open, since then only operators and criminals would have the tool needed to open it; but a true, remotely-locking belt buckle assembly which can be electromechanically released when we, the ride's operators, deem it safe to be opened, and not before.

As for some other questions: there will be a wing of some sort present or I'll eat my hat. However, I rarely wear a hat, so now is that a statement of conviction, or an enigma?

So for those so inclined, we "don't even know what we are doing yet" about the cars; for the kinder, gentler rest of you folks, we retain our options until we have make a decision; and we don't have to make it yet, so we haven't. I deeply appreciate the respect shown by the stated notion that whatever we decide has a good reason behind it; I hope we are able to fulfill that faith expressed!

John

KG

^ Never been disappointed by any decision Knoebels has made before...and YOUR work speaks for itself... ;)

Thanks for posting... :)

P.S. Knowing what you're talking about, sharing it with us, AND being humorous at the same time...that's almost too much.
*** Edited 8/31/2006 10:54:16 PM UTC by rollergator***

Thanks for keeping us in the loop, John. This is a very exciting project to follow.

No hype, no hysterics, only reasoned thinking. How refreshing.

What great news - Wings and maybe no OTSRs.....
....and if there are OTSRs, they will be rather minimal.

Now if I can only figure out how to get an invite next Spring to re-ride the Flying Turns.

Mike

Awesome batch of info there, and thanks alot RGB for posting that link, those are the photos I was looking for to show the cars closer and also the edge of the trough (with that ledge that comes in a bit that was discussed earlier)

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Riverview Mike said:

Now if I can only figure out how to get an invite next Spring to re-ride the Flying Turns.

Mike

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You need an invite? Heck, hop in the car and make the trip! Unless you are referring to a special event that I missed, which is possible. Living less than 5 miles from the old Euclid Beach and seeing pictures and videos for a good chunk of my 38 years has got me on the edge of my seat for this. I just hope I don't have to wait the whole freaking summer to get there next year like I have this year!

Tom

I would suspect the trains are quite a unique challenge.

Seems to me that there would have to be an emphasis on lessening the weight of the upper portion of the vehicle.

In other words, the bottom of the cars would have to far outweigh the tops in order to avoid potential rollovers.

Seems to be adding OSTR's *could* make the car top heavy. To compensate, the park would have to increase the weight of the bottoms of the cars. By effect, that may slow the trains and/or cause additional strain and wear and tear on the trough and structure.

Just thinking out loud...

Shaggy