floorless vs. flyers

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IBsteve said: Every floorless I've been on moved people through more quickly than the flyers. The load and unload time on both S:UF and XF were both at least twice as long as the floorless rides. Since you really offer no proof to convince me it's not capacity, just your opinion, I think I'll stick by my original statement.

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Here's your proof:
Both BDK and S:UF run two trains. Both are approximately the same length (S:UF is just a *bit* longer). But S:UF seats 32 while BDK seats only 28. Clearly S:UF has the better capacity. The only thing that's going to make a difference in capacity on a floorless vs a flyer is load times, and there's no reason a B&M flyer should take longer to load. In fact, it's more simple to load a B&M flyer than a floorless coaster...so what's your argument?

-Nate

coasterdude, in my experience the load times are FAR longer on the flying coasters. but since there are no true stats to back any arguements there is no point to it.

macho nachos, i feel the same way. i spent the entire ride waiting for when i was on my back and the g forces actually held me in rather than force me down. im worried someone will get tossed from a vekoma flyer. never been on a b&m so i dont know how they feel.

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Are you speaking of B&M or Vekoma flying coasters? Vekoma flyers have an awkward restraint system, and it *does* take forever to load those. However, B&M's design is as simple as a lapbar, and shouldn't (and, from my experience, doesn't) take any time at all. In fact, SFGAm's crews usually load S:UF faster than B:TR (similar setup, but no seatbelts on the flyer).

-Nate

well, x-flight at sfwoa has 5+ minute intervals with a 1 train operation and sm:uf at sf:gadv seemed to have similalarly bad intervals with the 2 trains always stacked. the line was close to 4 hours on a weds.

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mantis man said: I'd take the floorless because, while flyers are unique, you can do a lot more element-wise with a floorless. Floorless designs can go faster, higher, and flip in a larger variety of ways. With the flyer, you're limited to the types of things you can do by the lower g tolerance due to the flying position. Of course this is just based on what we've seen so far from the flyer, which is still a very new design and hasn't been taken to its full potential yet. Perhaps I'll change my mind if a big park like CP spends some cash for an awesome custom flyer that has some new elements in it.

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I think flying coasters should be able to ride on the outside of the loops, like Nightwing at SFNE.
*** This post was edited by person 9/7/2003 4:45:31 PM ***

A floorless is really just a sit down without a floor, just something extra. I don't see how the floorless vs flyer argument is really a good one at all. The rides are not comparable at all.

How many plain sitdowns has B&M made since Medusa? A floorless is not the next big thing, it's just the natural progression of the sit down. it is the sit down.
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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

flyers > floorless

x flight > b:kf
s:uf > medusa

there ya have it!
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coasterdude318 said:

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IBsteve said: Every floorless I've been on moved people through more quickly than the flyers. The load and unload time on both S:UF and XF were both at least twice as long as the floorless rides. Since you really offer no proof to convince me it's not capacity, just your opinion, I think I'll stick by my original statement.

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Here's your proof:
Both BDK and S:UF run two trains. Both are approximately the same length (S:UF is just a *bit* longer). But S:UF seats 32 while BDK seats only 28. Clearly S:UF has the better capacity. The only thing that's going to make a difference in capacity on a floorless vs a flyer is load times, and there's no reason a B&M flyer should take longer to load. In fact, it's more simple to load a B&M flyer than a floorless coaster...so what's your argument?

-Nate

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See how facts can make all the difference in an effective rebuttal? I know nothing of BDK, but as I said, my experience on the coasters I've ridden is that over a period of time, the floorless have moved more folks through. OK, that's an assumption. I'll restate and say that it seemed that way.

My argument is, and I'm sure it's one shared by others who've experienced the same, is the minutes, not seconds, spent suspended in the flying position on S:UF waiting for the train in the station to depart before unloading. Every time.

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MagnumForce said:
A floorless is really just a sit down without a floor, just something extra. I don't see how the floorless vs flyer argument is really a good one at all. The rides are not comparable at all.

How many plain sitdowns has B&M made since Medusa? A floorless is not the next big thing, it's just the natural progression of the sit down. it is the sit down.
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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

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The Incredible Hulk and Wildfire. But prior to that, they also only had two - Kumba and Dragon Khan. So that's not saying much. The reason as to why less traditional looping coasters are being built is because the Floorless is the next step up and it's kind of like why get a plain cheese pizza when you can get pepperoni and mushrooms on it. Same with what happened to the Suspended/Inverted coasters back in the early 90's late 80's.

Wow thast not what this "A floorless is not the next big thing, it's just the natural progression of the sit down. it is the sit down." said at all is it? ;)

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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

I have ridden two flyers Batwing, and S:uf sfgam, and two floorless coasters Scream and Madusa. I like Floorless coasters alot better.

As others have mentioned here, the floorless is by all means a sitdown. Big deal if your feet dont touch a floor. You are still in the upright seated position with the track below you. Dont get me wrong though, I thought B:KF was a great coaster.

Alot of people dog the flyers and especially the B&M version since its the latest craze. I still will never get jaded by the pretzel loop on the S:UF installments. The intensity of this one element keeps me coming back for more.

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The pretzel loop is the only good part of the ride. On Floorless coaster there is more elements and its alot better.

Oslor, while floorless is beating flyers by one in the U.S., dorney park is getting a new floorless I believe, as well as a park outside the U.S. (I forgot which park, but it is only 2800 or someodd feet long). I think that new inversions will come about with the flyer... just give it time. especially if they can make cobra rolls and immelmans and stuff... not sure of the G's but that would be amazing.

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I was more disappointed about Great America taking out the train than removing Stealth. Scream ain't too bad. Hmmm....to tell ya the truth, I'd rather travel 1000 miles to ride a good woodie when a flyer OR floorless were within an hour's drive.

When I was younger, I would have scoffed at people like me. But you just don't get that out-of-control feeling with most steel. Granted, Maggie....X, Xcelerator, MF....all great rides, but still not the same intensity as good wood.

This thread is like comparing apples and oranges when Coq Au Vin is on the menu. Not that apples or oranges are bad; it's just that when you're hungry...

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"I go out at 3 o' clock for a quart of milk and come home to my son treating his body like an amusement park!" - Estelle Costanza

I was at GAm. on Sun. and S:UF's capacity was amazing. As mentioned, it runs 8 row trains just as a floorless does, and the crew was getting the train out just as the previous train entered the final brake. Many times the waiting train didn't have to stop. In my experience, the B&M flyers have just as good, if not better capacity than floorlesses (which may be because they're getting the better crews, because I've seen stacking on two train op on both Medusas this year).

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My two senses....flyers are gimmicky, sure, but enough people seem to enjoy them that I feel that the extra expense is *justifiable* as opposed to a normal-sitdown/invert. Now, here's where I get shelled....I just don't see that the floorlessness is *worth* the extra time and money. Maybe if your park already has a lot of possible track/train configurations (like SFMM), then it may be worth it so that you don't get "duplication".....but overall, the flyers offer a "different-enough" experience so I can see it as passing the all-important "cost-benefit analysis"....

Personally, I'd still take a nice wooden terrain coaster over either of them...;)
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"Ju-ju-just like the bad guy, from Lethal Weapon 2, I've got diplomatic immunity, so Hammer you can't sue, can't touch me...." The Peter Griffin Rap

Well I have ridden most of the floorless coasters that are built (SKC, Medusa-west, Scream!, BKF, Kraken) and for the most part (with the exception being SKC), there is nothing too overly earth shattering about them. As for Flyers, I have been on almost all of them as well (SUF-sfog, SUF-sfgam, X-Flight) and while they are fun, they aren't anything more than an inverted one step further. The inverted was BY FAR the biggest break through in coasters, since then we have been re-inventing the wheel.

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rollergator said:

Personally, I'd still take a nice wooden terrain coaster over either of them...;)
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Word to you-know-who... ;)

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"I go out at 3 o' clock for a quart of milk and come home to my son treating his body like an amusement park!" - Estelle Costanza

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could it be possible that the floorless train could cost less to manufacture than a sit-down one. thus giving parks B&M floorless coasters instead of Sit-downs. just a thought.