Flashpass prices at Great Adventure have gone through the roof

Matt, I'm actually asking a much broader question---this could be in any context. Someone buys something that you believe is a poor value. They believe it is a good value. Sucker, or satisfied customer?

I'm in the "satisfied customer" camp, because value is necessarily subjective.

^Sounds like you've been paying attention to the housing market, or the stock market....yes, "worth" is something each person determines for themselves. What something is worth depends on person, time, place, and circumstances. I'd be unlikely to pay extra for more rides on Mummy for instance, since I can walk on the thing virtually any day for the next several months. Whizzer, Toro, Shockwave...those I'd be much m ore inclined to pay more to ride more. Then again, I'm probably in the minority that would pay to RIDE more - I think the majority use the Q-Bot/Fastpass systems not to ride more, but to wait less....see more shows, spend more time in shops, eating, playing games, etc. People thinking that "the Haves" are concerned about how many rides they can get in a day - are thinking like "Have Nots". Perspective. ;)

Guess where I went tonight. A restaurant.

A new Texas Roadhouse opened right across the parking lot from my wife's hotel and we decided to check it out this evening (mostly because they hooked her up with free meal coupons - another conditional perk we often take advantage of ;) )

Anyway, they have a pretty badass system for queuing the waiting diners (no more of those lame vibrating pagers) where each party gets assigned a number based on their needs (party size, etc) and is issued a ticket with their place in line and an approximate wait time.

The whole thing seemed very 'theme park' to me. So did the groups of people filling the lobby, entrance, waiting area, and parking lot waiting for their turn. Honestly, it got me thinking of this very thread and I noticed this sign on the wall. (go ahead and take a quick look)

Sounds a lot like a virtual queue system to me. Works just like one too.

Quite simply, if you're there standing in line for 25 minutes for a table. I could have called in advance and secured a virtual spot in the line. I'd show up a few moments before my assigned time and walk right up ahead of you and be taken to my table.

Just found that pretty interesting given this conversation.

I pick satisfied customer...

But what if the only way to offer that product was to take its value from the customers of the product that it is an add on to, thus creating less satisfaction from those who purchased the main product but not the add on? lol

And I understand that those who like cutting in line for a price enjoy using the "product". Who wouldn't want to be able to not have to wait in line? I am not against "reserving" a place in line at all. I am against cutting in line, which until they find a way to prevent people from waiting in more than one line at a time, is exactly what flashpass offers. They even suggest that you wait in line for another ride while waiting for you VQed ride time to come in the description of the product.

Keeping that in mind, let me quote SF website once again...

"Guests are not permitted to save places in line or exit the line and return for any reason."

(Wow! Bold magically works now; same browser, same computer. That's strange.)

LostKause said:
Keeping that in mind, let me quote SF website once again...

"Guests are not permitted to save places in line or exit the line and return for any reason."

It says that guests aren't allowed to save places - not that the park can't.

A guest-run system would be anarchy. :)

I noticed something interesting at Great Adventure today. At the Flashpass area they had a sign up saying Flashpass had a limited amount of units available for today and they apologized for the inconvenience.

Looking into the Flashpass area, I saw hundreds of them behind the registers. They have also had that same sign up for my past 4 or 5 trips, all on days where it really wasn't needed except at Kingda Ka, El Toro and on some days, Superman.

Could that sign be up to scare people into buying it, thinking if they don't, and change their mind it will be sold out?

Maybe many of those hundreds had batteries that were not charged?

YoshiFan said:
Could that sign be up to scare people into buying it, thinking if they don't, and change their mind it will be sold out?

No, I think it's the proof that it really is a preset percentage that gets sold.

Less people in the park, less Q-bot go out to keep the ratio at a level that makes sense. (creating value for those using it and not affecting the day of those who aren't beyond necessary levels)

Wouldn't it be fun to have a park that had nothing but virtual queuing? I know it works in theory, but not on practicality.

That is similar to VQ in the way that you are telling the restaurant of your plans to occupy a number of seats in the near future, just like you do at a park with your q-bot. I really don't have a problem at all with that. A restaurant is not at all a good example of how lo-q operates at a theme park.

Let's assume that people eat constantly and need to visit a restaurant city in order to eat out. Did you pay an entrance fee to get into the city (theme park)? And did that entrance fee allow you all the free food (coasters) you could eat (ride) for the entire operating day at however many restaurants in the city that you could get into? Did the service of allowing you to call the restaurants ahead of time to "reserve your seat (flashpass) and elimate your wait in line" cost about the same as the entrance fee into the city did? Would it be fair to other to be able to call the next restaurant on your itinerary to reserve your seat while you were waiting in line at another restaurant, thus cutting in front of everyone when you arrive? Does the restaurant city have a rule at each restaurant to protect everyones place in line and the value of the city's entrance fee that states,

The only similarities that I can see is the part about reserving seats ahead of time, which I still don't have a problem with.

LostKause said:
The only similarities that I can see is the part about reserving seats ahead of time, which I still don't have a problem with.

You've gone full circle without a valid argument beyond, "I don't like how it feels."

I already explained just how unaffected you really are by VQ users. It's a statistically insignificant number. Capacity is reduced on the percentage of rides in which VQ is available by only the percentage of guests using the system...and that's a worst case scenario.

Again, if we go with your guess of 25% useage at a park like SFGAdv that offers 25% of their rides...that means at any given time the wait for 1/4 of the rides is increased by 25%. (or that the equivalent increase is spread throughout the park in some way)

So say the average wait time for the day is 1 hour - on average across all rides. The park has 56 rides. That means 14 of those 56 rides will have a 1hr 15 minute wait instead of a 1hr wait.

Or if it is spread evenly among all rides, each ride sees less than a 4 minute increase on average...and that's the absolute worst it can get if 1-in-4 people in the park use VQ and they ALL get in line for another ride while VQ'd.

I don't care how it 'feels'. The truth is you're not missing much if anything at all.

The flip side is that 25% of your quests potentially double the number of rides they get in a day.

It's that same thing we've said a million times that you just refuse to believe or acknowledge:

The cost of giving extra rides to the few is spread among so many that no one feels a real significant hit. Giving a small segment of guests the perk of being two places at ones greatly outweighs the cost of letting the majority of guests pay for it.

This rule, similar to a rule stated in every park that I can think of, protects guests from having people cut in front of them. Flashpass allows people to cut in front of them anyways.

It says that guests aren't allowed to save places - not that the park can't.

A guest-run system would be anarchy. :)

The way Flashpass runs is anarchy, Gonch. Put more of alimit on how many people can use it and the anarchy would slow down alittle. It could eventually become tolerable. I say if they are going to offer an elitist VQ system, raise the price to where even the Gonches of the world can't afford it, and maybe we'll not notice the few people cutting in front of us.

Isn't that hypocritical of the park to threaten to remove line cutters from the park and then offer line cutting as a "perk"?

I don't ride, nor am I allowed to ride all 56 rides, Gonch, so the number can't be spread out to all 56 rides as you suggest. I may ride the flats once each, and the sky ride, but there are people standing in line for those rides who are also VQed for a coaster, so my wait in those lines is increased as well.

Unless SF released them, we will never know the numbers. My wait times seem inflated to me.

I think that the difference between your park visits and my park visits is that you bring your family along. You take the tykes to the kiddy lands and maybe the wife just has to see the dolphin show. When I and a lot of other people go, we go for the thrills. I'll find a cousin or friend who isn't intered in the kiddy rides to go with me. Sure I'll meander and take my time, but I don't spend time at kiddyland.

Maybe that's one place where we are clashing on flashpass?

YoshiFan said:
I noticed something interesting at Great Adventure today. At the Flashpass area they had a sign up saying Flashpass had a limited amount of units available for today and they apologized for the inconvenience...

Could that sign be up to scare people into buying it, thinking if they don't, and change their mind it will be sold out?

I was there too and that sign struck me very odd as well since the park did not seem crowded enough to be true. My first impression was also that it was bullsh*t false advertising to stir anxiety-driven purchases of flashpasses, and I was convince of it once inside the park and seeing how relatively short the general public queue lines were. A last ditch effort to squeeze out some last minute cash on the last day of the season...

Lord Gonchar said:
Capacity is reduced on the percentage of rides in which VQ is available by only the percentage of guests using the system...and that's a worst case scenario.

Exactly--'worst case'. Because I wonder just how many people who use FlashPass are waiting in other queues while VQing for one ride? I was able to do this on one of the two times I used FlashPass, but the other instance I didn't have enough time to queue for another ride, so the only disadvantage anyone may have experienced from my evildoing was an extra body taking up space on the half-empty midways.

LostKause said:
I don't ride, nor am I allowed to ride all 56 rides, Gonch, so the number can't be spread out to all 56 rides as you suggest.

Not you, the VQ'ers. They are spreading out to all the rides. The 25% increase on 25% of the rides is theoretically not limited to those rides - they can physically stand in any line they choose while VQ'd. The additional wait they create is spread throughout the park. On a day with 1hr waits, that equates to 4 additional minutes in line for each ride.

I may ride the flats once each, and the sky ride, but there are people standing in line for those rides who are also VQed for a coaster, so my wait in those lines is increased as well.

I still say you're double counting. Only one of the two spots is artifical inflation and only for the ride they choose to double up with.

Unless SF released them, we will never know the numbers. My wait times seem inflated to me.

And they are. Just not as much as you think.

I think that the difference between your park visits and my park visits is that you bring your family along. You take the tykes to the kiddy lands and maybe the wife just has to see the dolphin show. When I and a lot of other people go, we go for the thrills. I'll find a cousin or friend who isn't intered in the kiddy rides to go with me. Sure I'll meander and take my time, but I don't spend time at kiddyland.

Maybe that's one place where we are clashing on flashpass?

Finally something we totally agree on. But neither of us is necessarily a 'typical' customer. We're a segment of the customers, but there are all kinds of people visiting the park with different agendas for the day.

Your type of visitor is the one who's most likely to be affected by VQ.

Again, this is nothing new. This is exactly what I've been saying all along. Anyone not like you is most likely seeing the effects on a lower level.

Now do you see how it's starting to come together? The negative effect is barely there and for those who seem to get hit square between the eyes, there's way more people who don't even feel it and then the VQ'ers themselves who see a greatly improved day.

The system works exactly as intended - it increases revenue and overall satisfaction.

Lord Gonchar said:

You've gone full circle without a valid argument beyond, "I don't like how it feels."

No sir. I have given a very detailed description of how it is not at all similar to a call ahead restaurant service.

So say the average wait time for the day is 1 hour - on average across all rides. The park has 56 rides. That means 14 of those 56 rides will have a 1hr 15 minute wait instead of a 1hr wait.

Using your numbers there, if I wanted to ride all 14 rides that included flashpass, during a 10 hour operating day I could ride an average of 6 1/2 coasters instead of 10?

Or if it is spread evenly among all rides, each ride sees less than a 4 minute increase on average...and that's the absolute worst it can get if 1-in-4 people in the park use VQ and they ALL get in line for another ride while VQ'd.

Most people who go to the park for coasters don't ride kiddy rides' gonch, so we can't possibly spread it evenly.

I don't care how it 'feels'. The truth is you're not missing much if anything at all.

Perception of value doesn't matter? Park guests wouldn't know "the truth" for sure unless the numbers came out, which I say they never will due to how bad it would look.

The flip side is that 25% of your quests potentially double the number of rides they get in a day.

...At my expense.

Edit - It's funny how we keep playing leapfrog with our posts...

In reply to your last post, Ginch...There is no way we could see how it affects park guests and come to a valid conclusion because every guest spends their time at the park in a different way. I will theorize though that most people who buy flashpass will try to get as much out of it as they can...abuse it, if you will.

I see your point about double counting.

LostKause said:
No sir. I have given a very detailed description of how it is not at all similar to a call ahead restaurant service.

Dude, you're on a whole different plane of existence. In this thread, not on that one point. LOL! :)

Using your numbers there, if I wanted to ride all 14 rides that included flashpass, during a 10 hour operating day I could ride an average of 6 1/2 coasters instead of 10?

Except that your math is wrong..again.

That would mean a person choosing to only ride the rides that allow Flash Pass (again, a small segment of visitors in the park when compared to the whole) then you'd ride 8 rides instead of 10, not 6 1/2.

Most people who go to the park for coasters don't ride kiddy rides' gonch, so we can't possibly spread it evenly.

Wow! You didn't just say that, did you? I think you greatly overestimate how many people visit a park like you do and greatly underestimate how many people don't just want to ride those 14 rides. If anything, logic would dictate that since the VQ rides are pretty much guaranteed, VQ users would probably go to the other rides to physically wait.

Perception of value doesn't matter? Park guests wouldn't know "the truth" for sure unless the numbers came out, which I say they never will due to how bad it would look.

Your words, not mine.

Edit - It's funny how we keep playing leapfrog with our posts...

In reply to your last post, Ginch...

Yeah, we just did it again.

There is no way we could see how it affects park guests and come to a valid conclusion because every guest spends their time at the park in a different way. I will theorize though that most people who buy flashpass will try to get as much out of it as they can...abuse it, if you will.

Actually there is. I just did it for you. At the extremes (depending on how the crowds move) the lines for those 14 Flash Pass rides will increase by 25% at one end and on the other end every ride in the park will increase 6%.

The truth is always somewhere between those two extremes if we use your guess of 25% of people in the park using VQ - the effect is proportionately higher or lower if that 25% guess changes. The only guess is how many people are using VQ and I'm basing the math on your numbers. Your guess. I'd guess lower.

...At my expense.

Quite honestly, yes. Yours and a couple others. You guys pitch in to pay for my free ride. My hour is paid for by four people waiting an additional 15 minutes...and as we've established multiple times (even in this very post) it only loses you one or two rides in an absolute worst case scenario. Most folks, most of the time, aren't even affected in a way that matters any to their day or their enjoyment of the day and thus in the end their perception of value.

How many different ways do I have to say it - you're the exception, not the rule.

annnnnnd now the thread is turning into one of the ye olde flashpass threads.... where the same thing is repeated 90x and there is much bickering ;)

damn, now I want some roadhouse, but they all mysteriously disappeared one day in our area. I coulda VQ'ed that for FREEEEEEE! And, my special needs are that I am cheap, so I demand a discount on my dinner :)

Just talked to my wife who ran into a two-hour line to vote.

She said she overheard the two guys in front of her talking and one said to the other, "They need that Fast Pass like at Disney World" and both laughed.

See, VQ has become a part of our everyday lives. ;)