Family of Plunge victim files suit against Knott's for negligence

BB rides again.  Look, as I said before.  If there was a weight restriction they would have been sued, there's not and she dies, so they get sued.  If I'm not mistaken, the ride has signage that states "Keep your hands and arms inside the vehicle at all times".  Ever hear of hanging on to the hand rail?  Obviously she did not, nor did she take time to find out if she was securly in the seat and strapped in.   Seh most likely covered it up and told the ride op, "Oh, I''m fine", while sitting on the seatbelt with only the lap harness on and barely pulled to her.  She was 300+ pounds.  Sorry, but there's no way the harness could have been securly fastened.   

Even though the ride op is responsible for the final check, there are times when a passenger needs to stop and think, oh yeah, my butt won't fit in this thing, maybe I shouldn't ride.  I'm tall, sometimes I get into a coaster and the leg room is a bit thin, I get off to avoid injuring my knees.  The ride is not exactly an ejector seat type ride, I've been on it myself about 10 times.  Heck, a vehicle width lap bar would be enough.  Some people just have to have some common sense and accept the fact that because of their dimensions, tall, fat, skinny, or short, that they have limitations and that they shoudl pay attention to them when it comes to a moving vehicle.

Falfas is the general manager of Knott's. I know a fair number of people who worked with him while he was still at Cedar Point. From all accounts, he's a good guy, and one that takes a lot of pride in running a world-class park that is tops in safety and guest experience.

I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about with regards to any insurance prospectus or whatever, but you seem to imply that the parks write off the possibility of injury as part of doing business. It is a part of doing business, but do you honestly think that because it's a part of business they don't care if it happens?

I can't speak for other companies, but I am intimately familiar with the company culture of Cedar Fair. Of course they want to be profitable, but to say that they'll do so at the expense of human life is insulting to the people who run that company. In fact, all of the senior management is compensated significantly by partnership units (stock), so their compensation is directly tied to the company's performance, which can be greatly influenced by this kind of accident.

What happened is unfortunate and very sad. To suggest the company saw it coming and is OK with it is ludicrous. This isn't one to chalk up to greedy capitalists.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"
*** This post was edited by Jeff on 10/14/2001. ***

Jeff,

I did not say any of what you just implied. You dig awfully hard to attack me Jeff. I may not agree with you, but I dont read BS into your comments so I can attack you. I just disagree and let you be. I wonder why you cannot afford me the same respect?

You cannot seem to let me be though.. and yet having an opposing voice on the forum creates an opportunity for an interesting disscusion...which can be very benificial and opens the door to learning through the information / POV provided by the "other".

Just as I have learned from others here.. yes, I have learned ..especially about the mechanics and structures of the rides which has been a facinating learning experience. I am very appriciative of those who have explained things to me that I was not knowlegable of. I look forward to leaning more. I see this site as a way to learn, surprised huh? :)

I can respect that you have a differnt opinion, can you be man enough to respect that I have a differnt opinion and actually have a right to say it? OR would it be more fun for you if everyone agreed ? (how boring!)

If I were you Id go read what these companies are doing.. its all open to the public. They (Knott's Berry) are "FUN" on the stock exchange if that helps you track this info down..like I did...I just used the internet...nothing special.

Why look this up and learn of it? well for you(the coasterbuzzers) in particular it can teach the fiscal side of this industry.. as that will determine if they can afford put in new rides, if that is part of their plan for expansion..et......the stuff you really care about! They spell it ALL out in their prospectus!!

I did not and will not accuse any person of wanting this to happen.. but it is the cost of them doing business. Period. I will not put words into people's mouths ..

"To suggest the company saw it coming and is OK with it is ludicrous". -Jeff

I did not say that - and you know I didnt. I am simply reminding you all that being sued is part of their business. And they KNOW its part of their business. And I guess that was really a way for you to insult me and say I am "ludicrous", feel better now Jeff? I hope you do :)

Providing information to younger people about the nature of business is not a bad thing to do. Providing information about where the money comes from isnt a bad thing to do either...infact it may enlighten them to a world that they may later be interested in as adults..stocksbrokering, banking, insurance underwriter, corperate attoney, safety inspector, economist..careers they can have that will support their coasterbuzzing lifestyle!...

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I'm pretty sure my manhood has little to do with my disagreement, but your posts all are intended to invoke emotional responses and are all about shadowy conspiracy theories about how the industry simply accepts this kind of thing at normal. Business as usual. I'm arguing that simply isn't true.

Above you say: "This is an expense of their business. They account for this ... so can some of you accept that if THEY know they will be sued because of events, that accidents indeed do occur? They accept this as business.. it is not personal or an attack on the industry. It is the cost of these rides... a cost I am sure her family never wanted to pay with her life!"

If that's not meant to imply that the park operators are OK with this, I don't know what is. I interpret this to mean, "Yeah, we might unintentionally kill someone, but stuff happens."

You also say: "But can any of you accept that this is a cost ( being sued) of their business and they are well aware of the risks ( in their industry) and prepare for just an event?"

After searching through every post above that, I tried to find even one instance where anyone thought otherwise. The potential to get sued is a part of any business. At what point has anyone on this site ever said otherwise? Do you think our members are too stupid to understand that?

Don't patronize me about FUN, I've owned as much as 1825 units of the company. I wouldn't sink tens of thousands of dollars into a company without doing a little research on it.

The problem with your posts is that, given your own experience with an accident, you have an agenda. We never see you make posts about how you like a certain ride, we only see you creep in here when something bad happens. Your agenda can only be to tell the world these parks are hiding something and they should pay. In cases like this, I think anyone with the facts would agree that Knott's and Intamin are going to have to pay for this one.

Really, what is you agenda?

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

Oh Jeff.. and your responses are not emotional?

You never go after the facts I present .. just me..you dont like that I am a survivor who is strong enough to speak up about the shortcommings in this industry..why is that? do I have a differnt set of standards to live up to in your book because I am not on your "good" list?

Is it that you dont like that I have survived a horrible event and have lived to tell of the darker side..? An event that is truly a nightmare to the enthusiest? Which I once was Jeff..I know its hard to believe..but I once was..after my experience and the information I have gleened the last 9 years I cannot be an enthusiest anymore. Why hate me for that? I think its a pretty logical behavior....people who have been bitten by sharks dont just go back into the ocean!

Yeah, you are absolutely right! ..I dont comment on riding rides, cause I cant..I am not able to ride for medical reasons..I take the warnings seriously and I dont mess with my body knowing what can happen to me..I havent been able to ride for 9 years..so how can I comment about rides I havent ridden? Or that I cannot ever ride? I thought you would appriciate that...

I comment about what I know and what is important to me..I think thats pretty fair..I dont go blasting off on every topic..I only remark or comment to topics that I care about and/or know something about..and there is something wrong with that?

As for your manhood, I dont question it, I dont know you first hand either..but I present to know that mature gentlemen/ladies can allow others a different opinion without reprisal. That is something that you have demonstrated a very hard time allowing me in this forum.

I wish you could stop seeing my input and concern for the safety and accident issues as a personal affront. I am not attacking you; Jeff, I am commenting on the safety concerns in relation to accidents and the park's responses/methods of dealing with such events. Something I have first hand practical experience with.

If you could get past that, you might see I have some valuble, and if not valuable , just information.

I do not see you attack others who are very "obvious" in their posts.. did you go after the myrad of attacks on the woman's weight? No.. just my input.. even though MUCH of what is stated by others is redundant and obvious....so why single me out?

Is it because I am a disabled woman who has lived to tell of the sadder side of this business?.. and I am not afraid to share my experience? or to share the information I have gathered over my years of experience?

Why cant you see that I too have first hand experience, different from the majority of your posters..but experience never the less in this industry? I must really bug you, that fact that I am here...
which is not my intention to bug you..I wish you could get past what ever it is that makes you single me out...

I was not just sharing that the ticker call letters for Knotts Berry /"FUN" JUST for you, it is for the others who may not know how to get the information.

And Jeff, PLENTLY of people think that suing a park is unreasonable. They DO NOT think it is part of the business.. be real here..they get caught up in their enthusiasm for the parks and their loyalty(and possibly their youth) ... which is understandable..so they may not realize the lengths these parks go to for insurance policies and what amounts they carry. I dont know if you are even aware of the policy Knott's Berry carries... I do not know what you know..

And to use your own quote "As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

Yes I believe there is something worth fighting for too...improved first aide personnel and emergency responses...improved maintenence.......improved reporting of accidents/injuries/deaths at parks...

that is my agenda..oh how evil and wrong am I! I am SO BAD aren't I!!! I am a hiddeous sore on the tush of amusement parks! I want such terrible horrible things!

Please Jeff.. I want what you want too... you want to be safe when you go coastering.. dont you?

Well I want you to be safe too...what a horrible
woman I must be to you.

Lighten up on me Jeff. Demonizing me doesnt constructively do anything except make you & your cronies feel better.

Does it feel good to pick on a disabled woman who was made this way from this very subject? Yeah it is close to my heart...which is reasonable.. and understandable. I would like to, within reason, prevent anyone else from going through what I have.

Where can you and I find middle ground? I am willing ... are you?

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http://members.aol.com/rides911/accidents.htm
http://www.saferparks.org

See... there you go. I haven't called anyone horrible. Don't put words is my mouth. I'm not the one talking about "manhood." I'm a journalist, and I live in the realm of facts. You talk about facts but I've yet to see you present any!

Show me facts. Cite sources. Then we'll talk. You're confusing my challenging of your "facts" with personal attacks. You're challenging my facts with personal attacks. I've not made any personal attacks in this topic... go ahead and find one. I live in the realm of facts.

If you're interested in facts, check out the latest editorial, written by one of our members.

To make an argument, you must provide facts. I live in the realm of facts.

The ironic thing is that I tend to believe the park and Intamin are at fault here.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

"Do you think our members are too stupid to understand that? "

"Of course they want to be profitable, but to say that they'll do so at the expense of human life is insulting to the people who run that company"

"you make it sound like the people who run the park are OK with this"
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These are from your last three attacks on me.

You may be a journalist, but is'nt this a place for opinion and editorials? your rules say this is a place for:

" A true moderated forum isn't for everybody, and it takes some getting used to. Part of the reason this site was created was to foster discussion that wasn't like every other forum, namely the same tired "versus" debates and favorite lists. We, like most of you, have a passion... a love of amusement parks and coasters. This is our place to come and enjoy each other's company, discussions, debates and intellectual conversation about that passion. Your cooperation in our mission will result in a clean, fresh and fun environment!"

and from your TOS: The messages express the views of the author of the message.

I was not aware I had to give and cite all my resources that have lead me over my lifetime to come to my basis of beliefs in order to be a valid poster here, to have a valid view!.

And I am not allowed an opinion? I do not see you going off on others about THEIR opionons..You asked me for my agenda, I gave it, do I need to provide facts in my belief system in order to be valid?

What facts do I have to give you to be valid here?
My being is not enough? Untill you dissect other posters with the vengence you show to me .. you are violating your own rules of conduct!.

" Noise
A noisy person talks so they can hear themselves be heard. They don’t really impress others at all. We discourage noise makers in the Coasterbuzz forums."

You have attacked others for going after posters with the same energy that you pursue me with.. and tell them it isnt a good idea..but you cannot refrain from attacking me?

Why do I have to deal in only facts when I state my opinion? If you hold me to these standards then I dare you to hold every other poster to the exact same standards.

*** This post was edited by BB on 10/14/2001. ***

Hey BB.  Moderate this.  DO we go to your website and bash you?  Don't come here and talk smack.  Take a hike.

I didn't attack you, I challenged your opinion. You don't have to read back the rules... I'm aware of what they are.

Again, show me the facts... you're dodging the argument. You're entitled to your opinion, but when you air it out in public, you have to be prepared to defend it. So far you haven't defended it. Instead you're putting up a smoke screen about how terrible I am for "demonizing" you or "picking on a poor disabled woman." That makes not a defense.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

Well Jeff will you enforce the rules with Buzz Heads Flaming?

ANd what facts do you make your other posters report to you?

I have reported facts.. you have ignored them..I have given you ticker numbers to look up with the SEC and the name of the report that I got my information from....

FUN
SEC.gov
10Q

Did you miss this above data ? It was in all my posts... just becasue you couldnt recognize it for data doesnt put me at fault..

3% of accident victims suing is from the National Trial Lawyers website...

Now is my opinion valid?

By the way you added the adjective "poor" to me being disabled...I only stated disabled...is that true? re read Jeff..MR Facts Only...

Heil Jeff!

added part: infact for your ease use the SEC's archival search engine named : EDGAR
and the prospectus I mentioned ,that you havent reviewed yet, contains additional data .. I gave my sources.. you just didnt know what they were!

And as for my adjectives mocking myself..you are allowed to take liberties with my posts by adding adjectives.. but I cannot poke fun at myself and do the same?
*** This post was edited by BB on 10/15/2001. ***

You have posted no data... only references to sources. Now you need to extract that data and detail how it supports your opinion. Again... you haven't done this. You have made another post that is filled with rhetoric about how unfair I am or whatever. There's nothing crisp, clear or concise about your posts that make an argument.

This isn't about my personality or CoasterBuzz, this is about the statement you made where you say: "It is the cost of these rides... a cost I am sure her family never wanted to pay with her life!" By coupling that statement with the one prior to it, mentioning that parks carry insurance for this kind of thing, I can only derive you mean to imply the following:

1. Parks accept death as a part of doing business.
2. "These rides" are inherently unsafe.
3. The parks are aware they're inherently unsafe and choose to do nothing about it.

Now, if that's not what you're getting at, then I don't see any point in your post at all. We know at this point that the park and/or the manufacturer screwed up by allowing a 330-pound woman on the ride. If you're using this accident to apply as a blanket prinicple to the industry at large, I'm saying that's incorrect and ridiculous.

Make it clear for me: In a hundred words or less, state what your specific opinion is, and what data causes you to arrive at that opinion.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

Jeff,

Untill you hold other posters to the same standards you are being discriminatory against me.

Once you hold ALL posters on every subject to this standard.....I will oblige you.

In other words you have no argument.

This isn't a debate about the merits of PTC over Gerstlauer trains... this is far more serious.

Have a nice day.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

From the sources I provided, taken verbatium.

' RISK OF ACCIDENTS--THERE IS THE RISK OF ACCIDENTS OCCURRING AT OUR PARKS
WHICH MAY REDUCE ATTENDANCE AND EARNINGS.

Almost all of our parks feature "thrill rides." While we carefully maintain
the safety of our rides, there are inherent risks involved with these
attractions. An accident or an injury at any of our parks may reduce attendance
at that and other parks, causing a decrease in revenues.'

MY REACTION WAS:: "It is the cost of these rides... a cost I am sure her family never wanted to pay with her life!"

Have a fantastic day Jeff!

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Hey Jeff.... Just boot her.

OK, so they admit in an SEC filing that accidents happen. I'm pretty sure that's common sense, but they have to make that declaration or face being sued by investors in a class action suit if an accident happens and it causes the stock price to fall. (I would add that the only two pure players, PKS and FUN, have not seen any declines in light of accidents in the last year I've been watching them, unless the market as a whole was trending down.)

That's not an admission of guilt, and I don't see how it could be interpreted as such. If that's the whole basis for your opinion, which I still can only assume you mean one or all of the three scenarios I mentioned above, that's ridiculous.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

BB Said:
They state in their yearly prospectus to investors that accidents on thrill rides DO occur and because of that they carry these policies. The amount of these policies amaze me ( let me just say the amount boggles my mind and would boggle yours too!). They, the parks, must feel as if serious damage can be done to carry the amount they carry!

Hmm, I do not find these amounts to be "mind-boggling" when compared to other insurance policies held by doctors (malpractice), factories (workman's comp), or even other 'transportation' industries (airlines). In each of these industries, any accident is going to be accompanied with negative publicity which goes farther to hurt the business than the actual incident itself.

BB Further said:
This is an expense of their business. They account for this ... so can some of you accept that if THEY know they will be sued because of events, that accidents indeed do occur? They accept this as business.. it is not personal or an attack on the industry. It is the cost of these rides... a cost I am sure her family never wanted to pay with her life!
To not prepare for a "worst case scenario" would be a foolhardy business practice. I agree with you that, yes, a tragic occurance is considered. But the connotation of the above statements is that it is "an *acceptable* risk". Food establishments, for example ones that serve chicken, understand that there is a risk of transmitting salmonela to their customers. However, no upstanding restuarant would consider this *acceptable*. To imply that "a few broken eggs" is okay with the amusement industry, I believe is an erroneous conclusion.
lata,
jeremy

Fact: You can turn around to talk to someone behind you in the Perilous Plunge seat with both restraints fastened - I have done it. With your lap and legs firmly secured, you simply twist the top of your body and look around the headrest.

Chitown, way above on this thread you asked how this ride could pitch you out as opposed to other flume rides you have ridden:

Unlike other typical flume rides I have ridden, this ride is actually attached to the track itself rather than just free rolling down a trough bottom. When you watch it go over the hill, the boat is actually traveling over an incline which is steeper than gravitational forces would let it do naturally (the boat has also been rolling up to the drop, not floating - there is no water in the trough until the actual drop itself, so it adds to it's inertia). There is no doubt in my mind that at least the back wheels would come up off the track if it was not connected the way it is.

The intensity in the ride from the front and back is also a big difference. It would be interesting to know where the women was sitting. After getting off the ride in the back, we would always laugh about the fact that you would totally be pitched out if that restraint wasn't there - and how surprisingly intense that was.

To us that was a good thing, that's why we choose that seat! But since there was not a clear indication that proportioned weight might be a problem here, that could obviously a bad thing in this case.

Personally I never felt unsafe on this ride - and I will ride it in a second when it opens again.

Personally I do find a policy for 175 Million PER OCCURANCE to be a mind boggling amount of money..for example...a worst case senario.. 5 accidents happen and the max of the policy is granted for each accident..which means a payout of 875 Million, over 3/4 a billion dollars! That is some serious money from my perspective.

Comming from a family that is three generations of physicians, I can honestly say that malpractice insurance policy caps are not anywhere near that amount. I can ask my insurance friend if she knows the range of amounts that are the median for physican's malpractice insurance. I would assume they vary by locality and field..ie..OB/GYN are the highest because babies lives are involved and tend to be a complicated area of medicine.

Hospitals do carry a few policies at a time that often supppliment a malpractice verdict for an award and currently those on average are ranging from 4 million to 60 million..I get that statistic from the New York Verdict Reporter which publishes weekly (every Friday). This service reports verdicts by county with breakdowns of liabilty and details of which insurance carrier pays what portion of the award and how the award is structured ..if it even is(most are).

Worker's Comp is state funds ( states pass laws to cap the amounts that can be collected) and they cap out around 200K generally..as for Airlines their policy caps are actually less then the amusement park I quoted above per occurance.. they have on average a 25 million cap, but that is to cover all passengers on the plane..so an example would be: 139 people die in a plane , and the airline is determined to be liable..the 139 estates split the policy cap....that is why I think the policies of some of these parks are some serious money.

As for saying they want it to happen, please people, I never said that and I do not believe that, but I do believe that they know this is a cost/expense of their business. I believe that most accidents that are the parks liabilty are from carelessness or just the human factor... (to error is human).

I do not believe it is derived from a malicious intent as many of you have mistakenly interpreted my posts to say.

Just as a skydiver knows there are odds that a parachute may not open...just like a police officer who must fire his weapon in the line of duty... which results in a fatality...knows..it is regretable but part of the package.

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http://members.aol.com/rides911/accidents.htm
http://www.saferparks.org

Thrill rides have inherent risks of injury or death, just like alot of other recreational activities (skiing for example).  The risk is statistically very small, but it is there.  While no person expects to be injured or killed when they ride, as a rider, you must accept the possibility, however small, that you will be injured or killed.  Of course the parks will never tell it to you like this.  

I personally think that there should be more ride warnings, rider restrictions regarding height/weight, and more disclosure of accident data.  But ultimately it is rider responsibility.  Every time you ride, you could be injured or killed.  If you do not accept this stark reality, do not ride.