Epic Universe expected to have $2 billion economic impact in first year

They alienated me, been loyal to them for years even though their airport was over an hour away. The free bags was huge. Realized what was happening late last year and preemptively started booking fully refundable fares, burning my credits, and then burning my miles. I will be free of them in Q1 of next year.

They essentially turned themselves into a crappier version of the big 3. Obviously with the new changes, flying was going to be more expensive for me, but if you’re going to make it more expensive I’m going to get something out of it, hello Delta Airlines, and my local airport.

Airlines are not a hospitality business.

And I'll say it again, because please let's have a semantic debate because those are so engaging. They have not intended to make the base experience sucky. That's a silly conspiracy. Maybe it actually has, but it was never the intent.

Lord Gonchar:

You guys are literally dumbasses.

I thought I resolved this all last week.

Arguably, Delta has done well by focusing on the customer experience, even though they are rarely the least expensive. This is particularly true in the front of the plane, but their coach product is also pretty decent for their frequent fliers.

Here's a silly example: every so often, I will get a thank-you note from the lead FA for flying with them. That doesn't change the physical experience of flyling at all. But it does nudge me closer to a smile, and I'm more cynical than most about these things.

Now try traveling on a foreign carrier then compare the two. Delta might be one of the best here, but it might as well be traveling on a third world carrier compared to international options.

Depends on the foreign carrier. Delta is definitely not in the same league as middle-eastern and Asian carriers such as Emirates, Qatar, and Singapore – but they're definitely a few notches above most of the carriers in Europe.

Jeff:

Airlines are not a hospitality business.

I'll concede this point. However,

LostKause:
even if it isn't actually intentional, it's just as bad as if it were intentional.

At risk of that, you know, semantic debate, if any decision-maker looked at FOL passes and said, "this will not make the base experience worse" they were delusional. There is no question they make the base experience worse. It is not possible for them not to make the base experience worse.* ("Maybe it actually has" is a little absurd; it obviously has.) The parks' leadership actively chose to implement this, knowing how it would impact their customers. That's a choice they made, also known as intent.

(If they did not know that it was going to make the base experience worse, that's ... worse.)

It may not have been their desire to make the base experience worse. Maybe they said, this will suck for people, but we gotta turn a profit. Maybe they said, this will suck for people, but it's offset by a lower gate price, so it evens out.

To bring this semantic debate to bear on reality:

Jeff:

Intentionally making the base experience suck is not a viable plan.

And yet, they have done that (depending on your definition of "suck"), and as Gonch predicted, have not gone out of business in these past 20 years or so. Which suggests that making the base experience suck is viable.

As I have said before, I don't think they were saying hahaha long lines are good. I do think there are perverse incentives at work. There is less downside to long lines, from a business perspective. Again, I don't see how you can say that's not true.

Just arguing past each other at this point, because we seem to have different perceptions of reality.

*The old Disney fastpass system, paper tickets and all that, arguably did not, but only because it was part of the base experience.

hambone:

At risk of that, you know, semantic debate, if any decision-maker looked at FOL passes and said, "this will not make the base experience worse" they were delusional.

Yeah? Nobody cared that Fastpass was a thing when it was free.

And we've been over this before... the capacity of the rides is static. 25 years ago we stood in line for three hours, which definitely sucked, but it's just what you had to do. Most parks have multiplied their capacity several times over since then, and assuming equivalent operations (which we know is often not the case), you're still waiting less than you used to.

Not everyone is as old as us, Jeff, and they don't know those ancient times. Does any park still use DJs and toss beach balls into the lines to kill time anymore?

We didn’t wait in those 3 hour lines anyways, we rope dropped and closed the park to ride those rides when the wait wasn’t 3 hours anyways. Who needs sleep?

Jeff:

25 years ago we stood in line for three hours, which definitely sucked

Where? I've never waited that long for a ride... I'm not as old as you, but I'm old enough.

Jeff:
Most parks have multiplied their capacity several times over since then, and assuming equivalent operations

Which is totally unassumable for most parks, Busch, Seaworld, Cedar Fair, Six Flags, I'm looking at all of you...

Jeff:
still waiting less than you used to.

Anecdotal, yes, 2001 Millennium Force, 45 mins line was roughly 3 of the 4 queue blocks full. There was music from a actual live DJ, people were excited, station music was superb, and ops were blasting out trains. Now... I took a few random days during the same month I was there in 2001, and waits were hitting 90 minutes... Again, what does this prove? Nothing... But I would venture to guess that for many places that aren't Disney or Uni, that line skipping has lengthened standby waits, and even if it hasn't, made the line move much slower, which makes the wait feel longer.

Which experience would I rather have?? 2001 no question.

Disney and Uni build attractions with the queue cutting in mind, sometimes that means having an entire extra copy of the ride to handle the volume. Disney and Uni line still seem to move somewhat quickly even with all the extras skipping the line. I don't know that holds true for the other parks.

Jeff:
the capacity of the rides is static.

So by skipping the line you hinder the standby capacity. Not sure anyone is arguing this, but I'm not sure why I am struggling to understand why you included this in your post.

Anyway, someone did the math and determined that the expected increase in revenue was justified, and that discussion and calculation must have included effects on operations, and wait times, the entire premise of line skipping is a balancing act of price vs outcomes, if your standby line never moves then your line skip becomes a requirement to ride versus a perk, additionally, pricing it so that it doesn't have too big an effect while maintaining revenue goals is also a discussion. So to say that they actively made the base experience worse is fact, because those discussions of pricing, capacity, etc must take place otherwise that is just poor business planning and execution, and last I checked it didn't say Trump on the gates of any of these parks.

Heck, I'm old enough to remember waiting 4 hours for Gemini.

This may sound nonsensical, but waiting in line is part of the experience. The anticipation of the ride is almost as good as the ride itself. I remember the last years of Geauga Lake. The entire park was deserted to the point where every ride in the park was a walk-on. It took away from the experience.

Many parks now have far more ride options, and therefore capacity, to lower the wait times overall during a park visit. Park attendance has been mostly static over the last dozen years or so, even as ride counts have increased. Does FOL increase the regular wait times? Probably. But there are so many other options that the choice to wait it out, or purchase the perk, is a decision that each visitor makes.

And it was said long ago that your park pass grants you nothing more than entrance to the park. No rides, shows, food, or drink is assured. Your experience is your choice, and what you are willing to pay for it.

The point about parks these days having more ride capacity than in the old days is a very good one. It almost swayed my opinion, until I realized that parks are a lot busier these days too. Back to square one.

And I wanted to restate my opinion that appearances are just as important as actual intent. The outcome is the same whether it the capacity is made worse intentionally or unintentionally. The line is going to be slow either way, which gets people to question whether it is intentional or not.

Therefore, offering Fastlane is a very good reason for a park to keep capacity up as high as possible. They wouldn't want it to appear that they don't care about the experience of those in the stand-by line.

Same opinion, different perspective, I think.

And about Millennium Force's terrible capacity lately, they installed a new elevator motor for this season, so they will be able to run three trains again. That should help drastically. It makes me very happy because of my recent experiences waiting in line forever for that ride. I witnessed a one to one ratio between Stand-by and Fastlane. The ability to run three trains should help drastically with that.

(Looks at the top of the page...) Epic Universe looks awesome, by the way. The buzz it is getting on YouTube right now is insane. They've been having previews for employees and the media (and YouTube Vloggers). I've been watching the park being built from the beginning. It's going to be a game changer.

If we're using Cedar Point as a benchmark, no, parks are not busier. Orlando themers maybe, but regional parks don't have a lot of attendance variation from year to year.

If anything, a park like Cedar Point is pulling in the same (or less than that record breaking 1994 season) with a season that's nearly two months longer than it used to be. Outside of the insanity of Haunt Saturdays, I would assume the daily attendance breakdown is actually less than it was when you once had the weekend before Memorial Day until mid September as the season.

Also - Millennium Force has been on three trains all of this time. There are plenty of times when they take it to two, but it still has been capable and has been running three trains prior to this system upgrade. The issue has been they were not able to dispatch until the previous train was all the way back to unload. Not that they were ever ready at that point anyway. If the last several years are any indication, a new control/lift system won't help at all when they were at 4-5 minutes dispatch times.

LostKause:

Epic Universe looks awesome, by the way. The buzz it is getting on YouTube right now is insane.

I love how this Epic chat has almost nothing to do with Epic anymore 😂

Keeping in theme with the line skipping, did Epic ever get Express, or did they keep it standby only?

Jeff:

If we're using Cedar Point as a benchmark, no, parks are not busier. Orlando themers maybe, but regional parks don't have a lot of attendance variation from year to year.

While I don't have the numbers to argue, as a local, CP certainly seems busier from an observational pov. So much so that every year I contemplate not buying a pass, only to cave instead and go all-in on the all season Fastlane.

The rides keep getting added and better, (when they work) but the experience does not. Mostly, I only care about the rides. Whether it's declining operations, fewer workers in the stations, shorter seatbelts meaning more checks and denials, giving away the gate, Summer Passes. One year they even did a Spring Pass. Oh, and don't forget the people. They suck. (Callback to a few pages ago. hashtagwinkeyfaceorsomething)

CP doesn't share attendance anymore, and the AECOM/TEA numbers are suspect at best, but H. John Hildebrant's book, he's a former GM, calls out that 1994 has not been surpassed. Given the massive reduction in population in Detroit since that year, and less severe flight from Cleveland, this is not surprising.

TheMillenniumRider:

did Epic ever get Express

I think they did.

https://orlandoparksguy.com...ed-to-know

Jeff:

Given the massive reduction in population in Detroit since that year...

The city of Detroit (or Wayne County) has seen a reduction in population, but the Metro Detroit region has net positive growth relative to 1994.