Drops more than vertical (90 degrees+)

Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:28 PM

I know this has been discussed many times and the general thought is that you couldn't have a coaster with more than a 90 degree drop, but take a look at the latest Screamscape update (specifically, the Screaming Squirrel). Could a similar technology/structure allow for first drops on coasters that go beyond vertical?

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 18

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:56 PM

While the general thought is that it's not possible, that thought is wrong! :) Gerstlauer has a coaster with a 95 deg. drop. This new S&S coaster shows that more is indeed possible.

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- Peabody

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 1:13 PM
I know that Gerstlauer currently has a roller coaster design with a 95 degree drop. Im not sure if they have sold one though..
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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 3:17 PM
This has just been discussed somewhere. It is possible to do more than 90 degrees no matter what anyone says. I even saw some pics of some that are on the drawing boards that are 95 degrees i believe i forget whose doing this one. Anyhow, like anything else, the roller coaster world will astound you with the latest inovation that pounds down what everyone thought was the limits. Heck look at thsose S&S pictures put up today on Screamscape. Would you have thought of that 5 years ago? No, 5 years ago we were entering mega inverts and and sitdowns. Shorltly after, coasteres just started hitting 200 feet high (except Magnum). Since 99', things have really been booming in this business. A coaster that crushes a 90 degree hill has just begun happening. Say the thrust air 2k. That was inovated. For companies to compete, they had to beat that. Things will be happening...

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-ANDREW-
http://insanerides.fateback.com

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 4:43 PM
The main concern with the more-than-vertical drops are the speed going into them, as far as I can tell. Can you imagine hitting the turn under at, say, 55 mph? It would be terrible with horribly dangerous forces. As we can assume, the drops will probably be like the new S&S ride, or the Gerstlauer. Granted, there are many options out there, but there will definitely have to be some control for those sections of the rides, i.e. heavy braking like on certain mouse coasters. Just my 2 cents.

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Some call me............Titan!

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 4:49 PM
I agree, Rob. I bet the S&S slows to a crawl before each dive. (Not that it wouldn't still be INSANE!) I can't wait to try one!

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- Peabody

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 8:42 PM

Yes, but those are tight turns, so I would imagine it is HEAVILY braked. However, would the turn radius reduce force the same way it would in an upright position? If so, why not a long swooping drop and a big shallow pullout, almost an "s" shape in nature. It seems S&S has proved that being upside down for a period of time is not a problem. So how about a tight little dive under (like the Screaming Squirrel) at the top of the lift since you'd be going relatively slowly and then into a long (for arguments sake, let's say 120 to 130 degree) drop and a very shallow pullout. Sounds entirely possible to go beyond even 95 degrees. Heck with a little creativity you might just be able to do something (on a smaller scale) that pulls out on the outside, esentially making the drop a full circle.

Just some ideas as this Squirrel thing really changes the way I'm thinking of coaster design.

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 18

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Tuesday, October 8, 2002 10:36 PM
The big thing I can think of (that would make it tremendously difficult) would be a long train. I don't know how you could do this with a train. Single cars, as in mouse cars...yes. A train? Can you imagine the pull in the last car? Yikes!!
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www.tripowered.com - danger, Will Robinson, danger!
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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 5:37 AM
So I guess an "outside loop" would be the next logical extension. I wonder what kind of restraint system would be required on a ride with a 90+ degree drop. Would they have to go with horsecollars?

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Jeff-Jeff
Wood - Raven
Steel - Millennium Force
Generic, isn't it?

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 5:42 AM

Actually, tight turndowns are essential to S&S's squirrel design. If the turndowns were not so tight the car would gain more speed in the turn down and the forces would be greater and last longer. The short, single car trains are also essential.

A descent at any angle is perfectly possible and will not overstress the human body. The only problem is getting into and out of the descent. People who think you can't do a vertical or beyond descent obviously just haven't done their physics homework or ridden the rides that already do so. For example, all top hats have vertical descents.

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 6:36 AM

Jeff Finazzo said:
So I guess an "outside loop" would be the next logical extension.


As much as I'd like to see one, I don't think that will be possible on a sit-down coaster. S:UF's pretzel loop is probably as close as we will come. I suppose if it was a tiny little thing like on a Screaming Squirrel it might work, but a large one would be near-lethal. Even stunt pilots don't do outside loops. My hometown has had a yearly airshow for as long as I can remember with several big name pilots/teams (Thunderbirds/Blue Angels) every year. I can think of one occasion I saw an outside loop. Even those nuts don't do them! :)

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- Peabody

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 7:43 AM
I think S&S have the right idea. single car trains, lapbars and heavy braking. I never had any faith in that R shaped drop and I haven't heard anything about it besides a sketch in a coaster magazine. the forces in the last car would be increadible and having all your weight plus some on your shoulders is a bad idea. your shoulders weren't meant to carry that much weight. personally, I like parabolic hills and would be satisfied with a B&M dive machine.

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-Bob (formerly Coaster Jedi)
Do any of you know how to build a sundial out of a pen and a donut?
uh oh, sounds like someone has a case of the mondays.

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 8:17 AM

Peabody said:

Jeff Finazzo said:
So I guess an "outside loop" would be the next logical extension.

As much as I'd like to see one, I don't think that will be possible on a sit-down coaster.

Yes, but isn't the dive under on the Screaming Squirrel esentially half of an outside loop? What's stopping them from incorporating the second half sometime down the road? Or maybe even an inside loop, but on the upside down portion of the track so halfway throught the inverted loop, you're rightside up. I think this ride more than any opens up tons of design possibilities. Granted the mouse-like properties probably have to stay intact to keep the forces managable, but imagine these little compact coasters doing all kinds of crazy manuvers - dive unders, stretches of upside down riding, inverted loops, outside loops. It'd be insane!

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 18


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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 8:24 AM
Exactly...that's why I continued to say that if it was a tiny little "Screaming Squirrel" outside loop, it might be possible :) I never thought it would be, but in this context it could be. I'd still put my money on no larger outside loops, especially with actual trains, instead of a small mouse car.

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- Peabody

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 9:27 AM

Sorry, missed that, Peabody. :)

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 18

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 9:48 AM

Actually, aerobatic pilots perform outside loops all the time in competition. Not in the jets that the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds use, but in special planes built for aerobatics.

Somewhat like in coasters, they can do this in part because they are flying relatively small, low speed planes. They also have the advantage that the plane is powered on the way back up the second half of the outside loop. They don't have to rely on speed alone to overcome gravity.

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 10:49 AM

Lord Gonchar, do a search. I just posted something like this a couple weeks ago. The coaster's name is Tsunami and has a drop of 95.

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Cedar Point: America's Rockin' Roller Coast!

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 10:58 AM

I saw those threads, CedarPointNut, but with the info/photos of the S&S ride, there's a whole new world of possibilities - that's more what this thread is about. Different discussion than most of those other threads.

It feels weird to be on the receiving end of a "do a search" post - maybe I'll start saying that less. :)

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 18

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 11:05 AM

The drop on X is 89 degrees, but releative to the way you're facing on the drop you are falling at a 91 degree angle.

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Wednesday, October 9, 2002 11:23 AM
Oh, the airtime on a 95 degree drop (drool)...
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