# Drachen Fire Cutback

Sunday, July 7, 2002 6:45 PM
The overbanked turns on Millennium Force are set at 122 degrees and I was wondering what the degree measurement on Drachen Fire's cutback was. The cutback on DF is considered an inversion, while the overbanks on MF are not, but to me, they look very similar. Also, do any other coasters out there have cutbacks?

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Intelligence is a God given gift: Know how to use it.

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Sunday, July 7, 2002 6:48 PM

The cutback on DF was a true inversion, at 180 degrees I believe.

The Overbanks on Millie are just that, overbanked turns and when riding really do not feel like inversions.

The closest thing to a cutback still out there would be the Top Hats on Premier shuttle coasters.

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The Beast and Night, They go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly

*** This post was edited by MagnumForce on 7/7/2002. ***

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Sunday, July 7, 2002 7:42 PM

This is a topic that's been debated a million times. Some points to consider (and I'm not choosing sides on this one):

1. Anything past 90 degrees and your feet are above your head. Does that count as being inverted or do you have to do a full 180?

2. Mantis (sitting across a midway from MF) has an incline loop which most people, including the park, call an inversion yet it doesn't take you to a full 180 degrees. Does anyone know the angle on Mantis' incline loop?

3. CP themselves don't officially call the overbanked turns inversions.

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 13

*** This post was edited by Lord Gonchar on 7/7/2002. ***

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Sunday, July 7, 2002 7:45 PM
I think Mantis' inclined loop is a moot point because you do take the normal loop maneuver, its just set sideways just a little tiny bit, about 130 degrees I believe. While riding you cannot tell the difference between it and a normal loop.

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The Beast and Night, They go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly

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Sunday, July 7, 2002 7:48 PM
I think a lot of enthusiasts use 135 degrees as the line between an overbanked turn and an inversion. Being half-way between 90 and 180, I think it works out pretty well. In the end, though, it's all a personal choice to make.

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James Draeger
-Proud co-founder of the Coasterbuzz street team

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Sunday, July 7, 2002 7:53 PM
There is a really overbanked turn on Mr. Freeze, I though it was an inversion. Here's the pic. http://www.coasterphotos.com/SFOT/freeze13.htm
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Sunday, July 7, 2002 9:05 PM
Even though this is nit-picking, when my feet are above my head, I am inverted, whether a park agrees with me or not:)
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www.tripowered.com ~ *the true masters*

*** This post was edited by nasai on 7/8/2002. ***

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Sunday, July 7, 2002 9:15 PM

I tend to agree with nasai - anything over 90, but like I said, I'm not taking sides. ;)

MagnumForce - the "feeling" you talk about is based on your experience. I happen to disagree. The incline loop feels different than a standard vertical loop to me. On Millennium Force I get a very similar feeling to being inverted - something about having to look up to see the ground that gives me that feeling.

Do I think the overbanks on MF are inversions? No.
Would I say they were wrong had they called them inversions? No.

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 13

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Monday, July 8, 2002 5:21 AM

This argument is tired, but I'll add this before someone else does:

If anything over 90 degrees is an inversion, then all Intamin first-gen drop rides have an inversion. As you drop down from the top track to the bottom track at the end of the ride, the car tips to about 95 degrees.

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He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking; can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

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Monday, July 8, 2002 5:32 AM

I'll never understand why people can't just go by what the ride manufacturer says. If they call it a loop, why can't it be? Who ultimately cares?

Hey Rob, you been A.W.O.L. long enough? Where in the world have you been? Don't tell me... the band. Haha. You kids and your music! :oÞ When you coming out here, man? :)

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Why do we fear Mack trucks, but not Mack Wild Mouse coasters?

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Monday, July 8, 2002 5:32 AM

What is the difference between the Top Hat and the Cutback?

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Monday, July 8, 2002 6:38 AM

MF's overbanks do not feel like inversions, I do not consider them inversions.

BTW:

This is a cutback.

This is a top hat.

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Why do they report power outages on TV?

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Monday, July 8, 2002 6:43 AM

A cutback is basically half of a corkscrew that then returns the same way. It is really a top hat with no vertical sections.

At the time Drachen Fire was made, if you'd have shown somebody MF's overbanked turns, first they would tell you it would be impossible and faint, but after they regained conciousness, they would label it an inversion.

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Monday, July 8, 2002 8:02 AM
If you use the "over 90" rule, that also means you believe the turn into B:TR's last corkscrew is an inversion...making 6. In general I use 135*, halfway to vertical, but I just accept what the manufacturer says.

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My two favorite coasters are named Superman.

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Monday, July 8, 2002 9:38 AM

Well Brian, yes! I have been terribly busy with the music.:) (I am trying to buy a house...)

What I want to know about this entire argument is why don't manufacturers want to say they are inversions? That would stop this pointless nonsense, and the designers can say their coasters have inversions too. I mean, just think. MF is the first Giga to have inversions....what is so bad about that?
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There are no cheap seats!

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Monday, July 8, 2002 9:40 AM

astrosgp said:
I just accept what the manufacturer says.

I think this makes the most sense and agree 100%

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park visits in 2002: 13

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Monday, July 8, 2002 1:13 PM
I think I remember Jeff saying something like this. Cedar Point was going for records when they built Millennium Force. Now they could either say it had 3 inversions, which wouldn't have set any record or they could just call these things over-banked turns and gain one more record for Millennium Force... I would have also went for the extra record

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"The opposite of war isn't peace, its creation," Rent.

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Monday, July 8, 2002 1:18 PM
Not to mention...what was that statistic about losing (some huge percentage) of potential ridership if you build a ride that goes upside-down?

So Cedar Point built a ride with three inversions, but did it in such a way that they can convincingly argue that it doesn't have any so as not to lose all those potential riders! :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Monday, July 8, 2002 1:20 PM
Additionally, there's probably some incomprehensible fear among many members of the potential audience that rides with inversion HAVE to have OTSR's to be safe. Obviously we know this isn't true, but you wouldn't believe how many of my friends tell me that FoF or Mr. Freeze etc. CAN'T have inversions and a lap bar.
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Monday, July 8, 2002 1:49 PM
Thats what I thought at at 1st, thats wy my 1st ride on Mr. Freeze with lapbars I hugged the lapbars casue i didn't know wat was gonna happen.LOL
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