Disney may lose GM sponsorship for Test Track

You can't really tell me with a straight face that you think a Focus is of the same quality as a Corolla or Civic.

I didn't, and wouldn't.

But that's not the point at all, Jeff. You're making an unavoidably complex issue (domestic industry in the s*****er due to a variety of causes) into one that is very black-and-white (their quality is teh suX0rz!!!11one!!!). That simply isn't the case at all.

I'm not making anything a one-cause, black-and-white issue. I'm responding to the ridiculous assertion that the US auto companies have good product. They don't.

Of course they don't. Because you have an import that is good, and anecdotal evidence trumps all. ;)

The third-parties who give awards and magazines and Web sites who review this stuff have been saying it for decades. Combined with enough first-hand experience, yeah, I'm confident that I'm right.

Believe what you want. I don't think we should be bailing out these companies for years of sucking.

How do you measure what is a 'good' product? Reliability? Style? Functionality? Cost? All of the above? None of the above? Something else?

Not sure that I buy into the idea that the US auto makers don't deliver a 'good' product.

With that said, I don't think we should be bailing them out either - but not because of the quality of their product.

So, let me get this straight, Jeff... You deride others for bringing certain mags into coaster-related discussions because of the lack of merit of said magazines. And yet, you know almost nothing about the automotive industry, and see no fault in bringing up similar mags like Consumer Reports or JD. I know I've mentioned their bias here before, but I'll rehash.

CR, for quite a long time, had a policy to never recommend a domestic vehicle if that vehicle model was new (newly redesigned, or a completely new vehicle). For imports, on the other hand, they would issue automatic recommendations for new models quite often. Now, if that doesn't scream bias, I'm not sure what does.

Yes, the imports used to trump domestics in terms of quality. However, as is common knowledge in manufacturing, increasing capacity relates directly to decreased QC. Period.

In 2005, Toyota recalled 2.2 million vehicles in 2005 alone, which is more than double what it recalled in 2004. They only recalled a few hundred thousand in 2003. You'll recall that in 2006, Toyota passed GM in sales. Do you not see the correlation here? Toyota is making more vehicles than it ever has, and is now recalling far more vehicles than it ever has. And what's more is that the recalls in 2005 are for many vehicles manufactured in the 90's, before their massive growth at the beginning of this decade.

ADDED:
As for the bailout...

Do I think these companies deserve to be bailed out? Absolutely not.

Do I think these companies should be bailed out? Absolutely.

Not doing so will have fairly disastrous effects on everyone, even Toyota, Honda, etc.

djDaemon said:
ADDED:
As for the bailout...

Do I think these companies deserve to be bailed out? Absolutely not.

Do I think these companies should be bailed out? Absolutely.

Not doing so will have fairly disastrous effects on everyone, even Toyota, Honda, etc.

Exactly. The issue of an auto bailout is a lot bigger than these domestic companies and what they have done over the years. The arms of negative impact would extend far beyond those companies if they all fail.

Exactly, Carrie.

And, for what its worth, Toyota ain't having such a great year, either.

Japan Asked to Bail Out Toyota

I say screw 'em. They should've made quality product! ;)

If Toyota had simply built better cars, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in . . .

djDaemon said:
So, let me get this straight, Jeff...

Don't make this about me, debate the merits of your case.

Toyota asking for a $3 billion loan hardly seems like the massive failure of GM asking for $16 billion.

And selling more means recalling more? Yeah, that makes sense to me. If I sell more of anything and there's a recall, I'd have to recall more than if I had sold less. My Corolla was recalled too, to replace a bolt on the power window bracket because a couple of them came loose somewhere. So what? I'm glad they owned up to it and will fix it.

My ex-wife just sold "our" '98 last year, with 180,000 miles. It never required any work beyond the regular brakes, tires and belt changes. That impresses me. How many Ford Escorts from 1998 are still on the road?

As much as I rely on CR for other product reviews, I've sometimes questioned their auto reviews. I think there is a bias against American-made autos. Many times when you read their reviews, two vehicles will have identical values in something like braking distance, trunk size, turning circle, or accident avoidance. Yet the rating in that category will be one step lower for the American car (good vs. very good, for example).

They have recently noted that Toyota has taken a slight hit in quality on some of their vehicles, going so far as not to recommend one or two models.

Jeff, that $3 billion Toyota asked for is $3 billion more than Ford is requesting. Which puts Toyota somewhere between GM and Ford for its product quality, apparently.

Toyota is being opportunistic, looking for cheap financing. They're not going to wither and die if they don't get it.

Ford sucks and is run by morons. Bring back the Taurus? Seriously?

Edit... "Toyota is not in danger." Like I said... opportunistic, and applying it to its financing arm at that. Compare that to GM, which says it won't survive the next few months unless it gets cash.

It should be noted that the only reason Ford has yet to hold out their hand is because they secured credit before this whole financial mess took it's toll. If they had delayed that financing even a few months, they'd be lined up with GM & Chrysler. Don't mistake their lack of need as a sign of health - everyone is losing cash right now, even Toyota.

As for the Taurus... the only moronic thing they ever did in that regard was kill it. You cannot buy name recognition like that.

Jeff, are you suggesting that Toyota doubled it's sales from 2004 to 2005? Because that's what their recall rate did - it doubled.

Recalls are an absolute direct measure of quality. You can't say that Toyota's recalls are better than GM's, just 'cause.

The thing that gets me with this discussion is that the North American foreign auto makers stood right there with the domestic auto makers (albeit quietly) and offered their support for a bailout. Does anyone really think they did that simply because they appreciate the challenge of healthy competition... competition they apparently don't even have to worry about? No, they did it because their survival is on the line, too.

The entire auto industry is far more complex than the individual companies we hear so much about.

All recalls are not created equal. A loose bolt on a window is a lot different from, say, wheels rubbing the inside of wheel wells and leading to catastrophic crashes. It doesn't matter what argument you make, I'll still think Ford sucks and remain a Toyota customer. It won't make Ford suck any less in my eyes.

And yeah, everyone is down, but there's down and then there's doesn't have enough money to continue operating.

Jeff said:
It doesn't matter what argument you make, I'll still think Ford sucks and remain a Toyota customer.

At least you're right about something. ;)

Toyota and Honda make products people want to buy....not just Americans, people around the world. When the global economy rebounds, those companies that make products people want WILL come back as well. Those companies that continue to make products people DON'T want to buy - they'll be requesting more bailout money until it's refused, and then they'll simply go bankrupt. If you were losing market share from the 70s straight thru 30-35 years and never bothered to figure out why....your company is not going to succeed. And shouldn't.

Amen.