Disney launches its fifth cruise ship, The Wish

Jeff:

your suggestion that corporations and consumers are opposing forces. That's also not correct. Those forces are complimentary and symbiotic.

Do you mean always? Like, there’s never something that corporations want and the general public at large (as indicated by polling) doesn’t? No disagreement about environmental regulations or corporate tax rates or corporate campaign contributions limits?

Details about electoral college, senate representation, gerrymandering , and filibusters aside, that’s the kind of influence I’m thinking about.

I dunno, give me an example. You generalized that they were opposing forces. I'm sure that's true from time to time, but not in the general sense.

Lord Gonchar:

First row behind a GA "pit". It'd be about row 10 normally.

Those Springsteen mosh pits are legendary. Slayer be damned.

How do you think gun manufacturers feel about gun control regulation? How do you think oil companies feel about environmental regulation? How do you think health insurnace companies feel about socialized medicine? etc etc

I don’t know how often they are and how often they aren’t opposed and specifically what issues there’s opposition on but all the lobbyists in Washington and state capitals are there for a reason.

You seem to forget that there are more guns than Americans, bought by Americans. A non-trivial portion of the population believes they certainly benefit from the manufacture of guns.

I don’t even know what we’re doing anymore. I feel like we’re not even having the same conversation. I’m broadly just trying to say that “money influences politics” and I feel like you’re nitpicking the smallest details of what I say that have nothing to do with that greater point.

Polling is often not helpful. Who do you ask? How is the question phrased? How much detail do you go into? What medium do you use to conduct the poll? Can make significant differences in the results.

Here is something on the difference between polling on gun control measures and actual voting on gun control measures:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/upshot/gun-control-polling-votes.html

And yes money influences politics. As it influences everything else. Post on a board dedicated to colleges. A popular thread right now is how abortion laws in any given state will influence your kids' college choices. Truly an issue for the rich. Everyone else is just happy to get their kid into one college they can afford and from which they can graduate with manageable debt. What the abortion laws are in the given state doesn't even come close to making the list of factors to be considered.

I’m sure it’s true that class changes political perspective, but I’m much more talking about direct influence through lobbying and campaign contributions (both of which are ultimately means to get access to decision makers).

Read the NYT piece. Gun control folks outspent the gun lobby.

On any given topic, I can (by selecting the specific question(s) asked, who I ask, etc.) get whatever results I want showing substantial majorities of people in favor of X or against Y. And if legislation doesn't fall in line, its because there is corruption, money influenced the results, etc. Or is it?

Ultimately, we get who we vote for.

Wait, what? You’re strawmanning me. I’m not making any claims of corruption or impropriety or unfairness. I’m not taking a moral or political position at all. I don’t care who spends the money or who it’s spent on or what polling does or doesn’t say.

Lobbying exists. It has influence. Campaign contibutions exist. They have influence. That’s it. That’s all I’m saying. I may not have spoken clearly, but that’s all I’ve ever been trying to say in this thread.

There’s a whole conversation about how much our votes actually matter given the influence of lobbying and campaign contributions, but we’re already pretty far into this rabbit hole.

Remove "there is corruption," from what I said and you are left with "its because money influenced the results...." And I am straw manning you? Whatcha talkin' bout, Willis?

And in reality, that really sums up my thoughts about the last couple of pages in this thread better than anything I or anyone else has posted in those pages.

Had some thoughts, but I don’t think I care enough to continue this conversation. Hooray for cruise ships!

ApolloAndy:

I’m not making any claims of corruption or impropriety or unfairness.

Declaring that corporations are diametrically opposed to the interests of people sure implies some kind of claim.

I’m broadly just trying to say that “money influences politics..."

No one has suggested otherwise. I'm still coming back to your assertions that corporate gain is a zero-sum game where people lose and that corporations use their influence to oppress the little guy for their gain. While I'm sure you can find exceptions, both of these are untrue for the reasons that I and others have explained. I'm arguing intent, not the existence of influence.

To even make those claims sure feels like a moral judgment to me. If not, it's usually the fuel for others to declare that capitalism is broken. I'm saying that capitalism is fine if it's regulated right, which it generally is not in the United States. I blame the deregulation we've seen over the last three decades, which is the opposite of the direction that other capitalist democracies have gone, where people are happier, healthier and generally have better outcomes.

Jeff and Andy would make a great team as President and VP, not necessarily in that order. You are both pretty much on the same side, with minor differences in opinion. I'd enthusiastically vote for you both. I'd wear your t-shirt.

Jeff:

I'm saying that capitalism is fine if it's regulated right...

I think this is the heart of the debate. If a corporation's first goal was not to maximize profit why are regulations needed?

I've worked for corporations most of my adult life. Maximizing profit is not mutually exclusive of acting ethically. Most companies are hiring people to set an ESG (environmental and social governance) or DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) agenda. Maximizing profit also does not necessarily come at the expense of anyone. I feel like a broken record.

And why not tie it back to billion dollar cruise ships and $5,000 cocktail/Skywalker Ranch tours. Who cares? There will always be things I can't afford, but the existence of them does not affect me one way or the other. It also does not, wait for it, because this is a theme, preclude the person that can afford it from being an excellent human being who has a positive impact on the world.

You have stated at least twice now that regulation is required to keep capitalism in check. Why do you say that regulation is required?

Jeff:

It also does not, wait for it, because this is a theme, preclude the person that can afford it from being an excellent human being who has a positive impact on the world.

Why do you keep coming back to this? Did anyone say otherwise?

For real? You're not serving judgment here? You have a funny way of articulating that.

Mulfinator:

What the 1% waste their money on I will never understand.

Because I find the experience a waste of money I am saying that all people who can afford it are bad? Ok.