Disney launches its fifth cruise ship, The Wish

But there are some situations which are closer to zero-sum than they are to "rising tide lifts all boats." When it comes to whether we should make real estate developers contribute to affordable housing, there is some amount of zero-sum going on - either the public gets the money or the corporation gets the money. That doesn't make it immoral to be on one side or the other, but it does mean the public and the corporation are in opposition (on that particular issue).

I don't buy that there are "sides" with opposing interests. Corporations have no interest in people being poor because they're ultimately the reason that corporations exist. You can't sell anything to people who don't have any money. It's not zero-sum when a not profitable dotcom reaches a high valuation, because that doesn't take money out of my pocket. In fact, if I invest a little in it, it may make me wealthy in the long run. People seem to forget that fundamentally, most wealth comes from appreciating assets, whether it be property or investments. And again, you're looking at symptoms, not the underlying causes.

Take real estate, for example. Orange County, Florida, has been growing at an insane rate for as long as I've been here, almost a decade. I live an area called Horizon West, an unincorporated part of the county that consisted mostly of orange groves that were abandoned in the 80's and 90's after a series of freezes killed much of the crop. The county, with an eye on urban sprawl, came up with very specific zoning requirements that forced developers to not just build endless McMansions. It forces developers to mix between McMansions, bungalows, townhomes, apartments, retail, light commercial, parks and schools. Demand is still forcing prices on all of the above up, but there are million-dollar homes down the street from townhomes under $300k. There's a school in every neighborhood and at least some service jobs and walkable retail.

My point is that you can head off the division and have a more cohesive community when you plan for it. Developers are making money and the squeeze on housing isn't completely out of control. You could make a lot of things better by changing tax policy and guaranteeing healthcare, which does not eliminate rich people, but it does fundamentally change the economics of everyone else. Maybe focus on that instead of how much your neighbor makes.

Ehhh...Horizons West is still sprawl, it's just pretty sprawl that pretends to be better, and I say that as someone closing on a new home in said sprawl in a month. It still requires a car to go anywhere other than Huey Magoo's or (in a year or so) Publix, depending on which subdivision you live in. Hamlin and Flamingo Crossing get closer (and maybe Lakeside off of Reams), but they're still very much car-centric developments with mostly lip service level of "walkability." If they keep popping up apartments on I-Drive, that would be far more of a walkable development pattern but still needs mass transit, which is a whole other conversation.

Fair points about walkability, but the density is substantially higher than it is previous high growth areas like suburban Columbus, for example. I mean, my gigantic house sits on 0.16 acres. My house outside of Cleveland was less than half the size and sat on a quarter acre, and that was one of the smaller lots in the neighborhood. Some of the areas west of town are far more spread out. And again, the diversity of unit types makes a difference.

Jeff:

Corporations have no interest in people being poor because they're ultimately the reason that corporations exist. You can't sell anything to people who don't have any money.

But if a corporation can make more money by catering to the rich wouldn't that be what they would do? Using Disney as the example, I thought that was the whole purpose of them raising the admission ticket pricing. It keeps attendance down, by pricing out the poor, which makes for a better experience for the rich, who are still able to afford the high cost.

The county, with an eye on urban sprawl, came up with very specific zoning requirements that forced developers to not just build endless McMansions. ...but there are million-dollar homes down the street from townhomes under $300k.

Without the zoning requirements that were established by the county, do you believe that the developers (the corporation) would build townhomes out of kindness? It seems like their goal, without zoning, would be to build what will make them more money which would be the high end homes.

Yes. I was going to say something along those lines, but Shades said it faster and better than I probably would have.

Shades:

Using Disney as the example...

Disney's product is not vital to anyone's survival, and they price it as a function of supply and demand. If they charged less, and there were more customers, it would be awful.

Shades:
Without the zoning requirements that were established by the county, do you believe that the developers (the corporation) would build townhomes out of kindness?

Obviously not, which was my point in the first place. There are solutions that we can invoke that are a lot more affective than telling rich people they're immoral for buying things they can afford.

Also, putting three townhomes on the lot where my house sits would have been more profitable for the developer, by at least 50%.

Jeff:

but there are million-dollar homes down the street from townhomes under $300k

If you know of a townhome in Horizon West under $300k, please tell me so I can buy it tomorrow.

To be clear, I was talking about when I bought in 2017, but there is one in my neighborhood that sold last year for $270k. There's a lot of inventory out there right now, and I don't see how there isn't going to be at least some correction in the next year.

As long as that correction bottoms out about $20k over what we're closing for, that would be okay by me. To see our plan (the smallest SFH in the development) shoot up $100k over what we signed for in about 10 months was mind-boggling.

99er:

If you know of a townhome in Horizon West under $300k, please tell me so I can buy it tomorrow.

FollowIng

Ok 2017 makes way more sense but I am still shocked that one sold last year for $270k. I am also 100% serious that if you see a townhome for sale around $300k in that area to tell me. I will make an offer immediately.

There is some new construction in Waterleigh going for about $400k, and a little over $300k if you're willing to go further west (off US 27). There's one on Water Spring that's been sitting there for a month at $400k, which tells me it's still not priced right.

But if a corporation can make more money by catering to the rich wouldn't that be what they would do?

There just aren't many corporations that can maximize profits by catering only to the rich. Its a numbers game. Most of Disney's revenues come from divisions that do not cater to the rich.

Housing cost issues in California are the result of multiple factors from what I understand. Its not a matter of addressing one factor and the housing cost issue goes away. But where anyone lives is a choice. If affordable housing is an issue that will be a problem at least if it continues on a long term basis. You can stay and make it work or find somewhere else that is more affordable. And those states/regions need to figure it out as well. Otherwise they will lose people.

Anyway….I was concerned about the smoking section being directly below the adult section on the Wish.

My main point is broader than a single region or a single issue.
1) Money is power.
2) There are issues that are zero-sum.
3) Ultra rich individuals and corporations will always leverage their power to do things that benefit them at the expense of the community a whole.

It doesn't make them immoral, because everyone is trying to do #3. However, not many entities have the ability to make a huge impact on the community by leveraging their power for their own self interest. The ultra rich and big corporations do.

You're absolutely not correct. Everyone is not trying to use their power at the expense of others. How could you possibly make that generalization? How many companies have you interacted with today that did not operate at your expense?

Welcome Back!

I was wondering what it would take to drag you back into the CBuzz arena again.

I'm here all the time. I just don't have much to add.