Decapitation at SFoG

Friday, July 4, 2008 5:45 PM
matt.'s avatar Ok, so bring up his race.

The kid is African-American.

What does this tell us?

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Friday, July 4, 2008 5:51 PM
Lord Gonchar's avatar Things that may be construed as racist, stereotypical and hateful regardless of how true or untrue they are.

Which is exactly what I meant when I said:

"The whole PC, touchy-feely thing kills me when it comes to claiming people aren't different because of race, religion or nationality."

Sorry, but that's a loaded question and I'm now respectfully dropping out of this conversation before it gets ugly. :)


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Friday, July 4, 2008 5:59 PM
matt.'s avatar It doesn't surprise me. I argue that based on what we know about the situation this kid's race, religion, nationality, or wholesomeness are irrelevant to whatever bad decisions he made.

Then you come in on some anti-PC rant, reminding us that people are different because of different cultural factors? Sorry but your argument is like trying to fish in a murky lake with a shotgun.

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Friday, July 4, 2008 6:09 PM
Lord Gonchar's avatar I'm not even following you at this point. What exactly do you have a problem with?

First you said:

"What legitimate reason could anyone have for bringing up someone's religion, race, or nationality in a situation like this? "

Then you say:

"The culture that surrounds us plays a part in influencing our morals, traditions, social norms, and ultimately our decisions and behaviors. This isn't exactly revelatory stuff here."

And then you say again:

"I argue that based on what we know about the situation this kid's race, religion, nationality, or wholesomeness are irrelevant to whatever bad decisions he made."

So things like that affect us and ultimately our decisions and behaviors, but they're irrelevant as to discussing why he behaved this way and decided to enter a dangerous restricted area?

I'm honestly missing something here, aren't I? I'm not sure how we can have it both ways?

I'm not defending CatPurrson's remarks in any way, just pointing out how I felt that those things could be relevant to the discussion. To which you agreed and when I said I was mistaken as to your intent, you suddenly disagreed again.

I can't keep up. :)


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Friday, July 4, 2008 6:19 PM
matt.'s avatar His race, religion, etc. are irrelevant to the conversation. Connect the dots for me and maybe I'll understand.

He is an American (but doesn't project that? or something?), hence...

He is black, hence...

He is Christian, or not Christian "enough", hence...

Etc, etc.

Explain how these elements played a role in his decision.

*** Edited 7/4/2008 10:21:54 PM UTC by matt.***

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Friday, July 4, 2008 6:26 PM
Lord Gonchar's avatar They shaped his being. I don't know the details, I'm not an expert in the field.

Maybe being black or christian or both were indeed factors in why he thought it was a good idea? I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss such things. Perhaps someone knows facts or stats or can offer info that makes it relevant? I can't.

Then again, I never said I could. I never said anything more than discussing those things could be relevant (note the emphasis for the third time) along with a little side jab about how saying someone did something because they were black or christian is taboo in our "everyone is the same", PC, touchy feely society.

I don't claim to have the answers. Just saying they might exist where you're claiming they can't.


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Friday, July 4, 2008 6:27 PM
Well if they put that he was at the park with his local cult, do you think that they convey sympathy or him in the story?

Bolliger/Mabillard for President in '08 NOT Dinn/Summers

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Friday, July 4, 2008 6:37 PM
Carrie M.'s avatar What? The point is that it makes no difference who he was with at the park. They try to lead you to feel something by adding that detail.

They are not supposed to be conveying sympathy at all.


"If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins." --- Benjamin Franklin

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Friday, July 4, 2008 6:39 PM
matt.'s avatar

Lord Gonchar said:
Just saying they might exist where you're claiming they can't.

They can't exist when you're getting your information from Myspace.

Unless, that is, you're using stereotypes, prejudice, and really hurtful assumptions to form your opinions. Even if you wanted to do this right, you'd be looking at some sort of psychological profile and complete history of the kid which would take eons to complete and will still never make any sort of firm connection between his race, or religion, or nationality and this one set of decisions he made, and then attempt to preclude other races, religions, or nationalities from the same thing.

Again, I'm still waiting for someone to connect the dots for me, but I don't expect it to happen. It's irrelevant. People of all types do dumb things, and being a African-American, Christian 17 year old doesn't even begin to explain any of it in any way, shape, or form.

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Friday, July 4, 2008 6:50 PM
Lord Gonchar's avatar

Lord Gonchar predicted:
Things that may be construed as racist, stereotypical and hateful regardless of how true or untrue they are.

A few posts later:


matt. said:
Unless, that is, you're using stereotypes, prejudice, and really hurtful assumptions to form your opinions.

I'm a psychic! ;)

I think we've come full circle. I doubt anyone here can connect those dots for you, but I don't think that means the dots can't be connected.


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Friday, July 4, 2008 7:36 PM
First of all, I DON’T appreciate being called a racist and a xenophobe. WHERE did I EVER mention the guy’s race? I don’t think I ever did. And what was xenophobic about what I said? In the US, as in most countries, we have a stereotype of the “wholesome teenager”, and this guy doesn’t seem to fit the mold. That has nothing to do with being afraid of strangers or being afraid of someone from another country.

You know next to nothing about me; don’t make assumptions. You know what happens when you assume, right? :P

I’m also not sure why everybody has seized upon my comments about the kid’s purported Christianity. If his MySpace page is indicative of the kind of person he really was, then it doesn’t depict someone who displays “good Christian values” as I understand them. The ONLY reason this is at all relevant to this discussion is that the media keeps mentioning that he was “a good Christian boy”. No, I don’t think his religious beliefs, or lack thereof, had anything to do with his actions on that day. Maybe the purpose, as someone mentioned (I think) is to stir up sympathy.

I do feel sorry for the boy’s parents. As bunky666 said,


I feel triply (I know that's not a word) bad for the parents because 1) They lost their son at a young age in a very traumatic way, 2) They must be in awe at his stupidity and wondering WHY he had to do this, and 3) If their kid really was telling them one thing and then they find out his behavior was something completely different around other people, it's gotta feel like they don't know this person at all. What a betrayal and a heartbreak!

That’s what I was trying to say in my own clumsy way. (Reason 966 why I wasn’t an English major…) I also feel sorry for his friends, and for the people who witnessed this horrific, senseless accident. And I believe I DID say, in one of my earlier posts in this topic, that I was glad that no innocent bystanders, particularly the riders on the coaster, were hurt. This was a tragedy: a lamentable, dreadful, or fatal event or affair; calamity; disaster. It shouldn’t have happened.

But what I’ve been trying to get at, and it actually seems to agree with what most of you have been saying anyway, is that it was the guy’s fault, not the park’s. I’m hoping that the limited visibility on the ride actually spared some of the riders the trauma of seeing the accident. (From what I remember of riding that coaster ages ago, if you’re in any row but the front, you don’t see much except the backs of the folks in front of you.)

I’m with all of the people who suggested putting razor or barbed wire atop the fence. That still wouldn’t stop someone who is determined to get in, but it would show another effort on the part of the park, and maybe slow folks down a bit so they’d be spotted by security.

I’m not heartless, racist, or a xenophobe. I haven’t posted a lot in these forums, so you all know little about me. I think it is unjust and unfair to start calling me names—maybe you’re sexist, eh Matt? (Meant tongue-in-cheek.) I also don’t understand what was so wrong or inflammatory about what I said— could someone explain that to me, without resorting to name-calling? I found his MySpace page offensive. But admittedly, that has little to do with this conversation about whether he was at fault for what happened or not.

Oh, and as I’ve gotten older, getting laid has increased in my list of priorities, but I still wouldn’t post that on a public webpage! Especially not as my title… :O :D

Cat”No more name calling, mmmkay?”Purrson

Edited because for some reason my line breaks disappeared... *** Edited 7/4/2008 11:39:07 PM UTC by CatPurrson***


Cats, books, and roller coasters-- three of the best G-rated, calorie-free pleasures in life!

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Friday, July 4, 2008 7:53 PM
Carrie M.'s avatar

CatPurrson said:

Oh, and as I’ve gotten older, getting laid has increased in my list of priorities, but I still wouldn’t post that on a public webpage!


You just did. ;)

See how easy that was? But don't worry, it doesn't define you any more than it defines that kid. :)


"If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins." --- Benjamin Franklin

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Friday, July 4, 2008 8:01 PM
Well, at least it wasn't my headline! :) ;)

And I didn't list it as one of my top three priorities... (Not saying it is, not saying it isnt... :) ) Actually, I don't think I've ever assigned a numerical value to my priorities.

I also didn't mean that his page defined him, just that it didn't indicate he was quite Mr. Clean. (Note to self-- quit beating that poor dead horse!)

CatPurrson


Cats, books, and roller coasters-- three of the best G-rated, calorie-free pleasures in life!

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Friday, July 4, 2008 8:44 PM
matt.'s avatar

CatPurrson said:
You know next to nothing about me; don’t make assumptions.

Coming from the person making ASSUMPTIONS about someone's faith and values based on their Myspace page, of all things, because said person doesn't fit into their own view of what this includes and doesn't include:


CatPurrson said:
In the US, as in most countries, we have a stereotype of the “wholesome teenager”

Is the irony completely lost on you here? *** Edited 7/5/2008 12:50:06 AM UTC by matt.***

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Friday, July 4, 2008 9:01 PM
obxKevin's avatar My .02,

Sorry Matt, I don't see where CatPurrson is making assumptions. Based on what I see on the kid's MySpace page, it makes me think he's a risk taker and rule breaker. His jumping two fences into a restricted area just confirms my impressions. I just don't see that as making an assumption, based on anything but his actions. Or is it just me?


The poster formerly known as 'Zcorpius.' Joined 2004
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Friday, July 4, 2008 9:59 PM
^Thank you, obxKevin.

I'm starting to think that Matt just likes to argue.

CatPurrson


Cats, books, and roller coasters-- three of the best G-rated, calorie-free pleasures in life!

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 11:36 AM
Obx, were'nt we all risk takers at one point as teenagers?

Coaster Junkie from NH
I drive in & out of Boston, so I ride coasters to relax!

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 12:36 PM
I still don't think the first drop is the problem area, the track is high enough above the ground that an accident wouldn't be an accident. The low part of the ride near the station house is the area I would be concerned about.
-Congo Falls - 90 rides (one day) -Murder of the Orient Express (1980-2003)
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Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:20 PM
Soggy's avatar matt. I've never seen anyone type so much and say so little. How can you say that this kids OWN WORDS (the myspace page) do not define his attitde and actions and that they are contrary to "Christian values?" I'm speechless.

Edit: typo *** Edited 7/5/2008 5:55:50 PM UTC by Soggy***


Pass da' sizzrup, bro!

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Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:44 PM
obxKevin's avatar Hopman...yes we were, I still am and I often feel like I'm invincible. And I'm 46 years old. But I don't have a MySpace page boasting about it.

And I'm sorry, but, if you put that kind of stuff on your page, that's what you want everyone to think of you, true or not. It tells me who you would like to be. And I will judge you based on that page. I have nothing else to go on.

Doesn't matter to me that the person is Christian or not, race, or any other factor. It doesn't matter because I'm not trying to decide whether to associate with said person.


The poster formerly known as 'Zcorpius.' Joined 2004
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