Continued: Cedar Fair announces Geauga Lake will be water park only

Monday, September 24, 2007 10:46 PM

halltd said:
Someone posted a while back the last per-park numbers they saw showed GL pulling in a profit.


Captain Hawkeye said:
Moving those coasters does not remove their costs from CF's books--it merely relocates them.
Yeah, to profit centers that are contributing to the bottom line, the way any of them do when they get a new ride.

It’s also a lot cheaper to relocate an attraction then to buy new. A $20 million dollar coaster can be relocated for a few million (Cypress Gardens rebuilt a wooden for $4 million). Six flags did that with many of their coasters over the years. Tidal Wave (SFGAm) became Viper (SFoG) became Greezed Lightnin (SFKK), Z Force (SFGAm) became Z Force (SFoG) became Flashback (SFMM) and there were many more. Besides the rides, they will relocate other equipment (trash cans, benches, kitchen equipment…) to other properties as well. Even before labor savings and land sales they could be saving over $60 to $70 million in equipment costs (if they had to replaced the repurposed equipment with new or used equipment). Didn’t they lay off 40 full-time employees, if the each averaged a salary of $35,000 in pay and benefits; they just cut $1.4 million from the fixed costs of the park. Labor is almost always one of the largest expense in a business.

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Monday, September 24, 2007 10:50 PM
^^ Not too long ago, you apologized for coming across as hostile in another thread. What gives? This is your idea of talking to people in a respectable manner?

I'm trying to engage in a mature debate where differing opinions are exchanged with decency but I'm not quite sure of your agenda. Whatever it is, I'm done trying to figure it out. There are enough people on this site that are worth talking to that I don't have to bother with a sarcastic sh*t such as yourself. I don;t agree with what you're saying and I don't think you have made any good points with your last post, so please don't interpet any future silence as some kind of approval of your thoughts. It's nothing more than me not wanting to waste on time on people like you.

For your own sake, I hope you learn the right way to talk to people at some point in your life, because right now your social skills are pathetic.

*** Edited 9/25/2007 2:51:48 AM UTC by Rob Ascough***

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Monday, September 24, 2007 10:55 PM
Jeff said:
Do you notice a trend here? Me, Walt and Pete, as best I can tell the only locals in this thread, are completely indifferent about this. What does that tell you? You can imply all kinds of things, but the reality is that for us, it was never a draw, under any owner.

I am a "local" who cares enormously. I live in Cuyahoga Falls, which puts me about 35 - 40 minutes from GL. As it's closer to me than CP, I guess that makes me as local as you guys. And actually your logic's flawed. Just because the few "locals" who care to contribute to this site are completely indifferent doesn't make that an accurate sample. If you want to see the other side of the coin, go over to geaugalaketoday. com and you'll find a whole lot of locals who might beg to differ with you.

I've been to Geauga Lake seven times this year, even after X-Flight and Steel Venom were chop-shopped, even with RWB sitting SBNO for more than half the season. And I've only set foot in the water one time all year -- and then only because my daughter begged me to go.


My author website: mgrantroberts.com

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:00 PM
Jeff's avatar Locals on a Geauga Lake fan site make a better statistical representation?

Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog - Silly Nonsense

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:04 PM

Rob Ascough said:
^^ Not too long ago, you apologized for coming across as hostile in another thread. What gives? This is your idea of talking to people in a respectable manner?

I'm trying to engage in a mature debate where differing opinions are exchanged with decency but I'm not quite sure of your agenda. Whatever it is, I'm done trying to figure it out. There are enough people on this site that are worth talking to that I don't have to bother with a sarcastic sh*t such as yourself. I don;t agree with what you're saying and I don't think you have made any good points with your last post, so please don't interpet any future silence as some kind of approval of your thoughts. It's nothing more than me not wanting to waste on time on people like you.

For your own sake, I hope you learn the right way to talk to people at some point in your life, because right now your social skills are pathetic.


It must be tough for you. You know, to read all those perfectly executed points I made, all very well-reasoned and in a manner which was at least presentable in facts and somewhat dignified.

Meanwhile, all you did was bring about a little hissy fit, calling me a "sarcastic sh*t" without bringing anything constructive to the discussion. By going out of your way to call me names and be rude as opposed to keeping to the topic only shows that not only have you accepted that what I've said is actually digestable and true, but you can't go about doing it in a dignified manner.

So please, if you're going to go and tell me to learn "how to talk to people some point in my life" after using derogatory labels on me and to call my social skills "pathetic," evaluate yourself first.

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:09 PM

Jeff said:
Locals on a Geauga Lake fan site make a better statistical representation?

No, but three "locals" on this site or people in your office isn't a better representation. I don't know if there is a way to prove anything, so I don't think assuming that no one aside from enthusiasts care is at all accurate.

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:25 PM
Fun's avatar

kRaXLeRidAh said:
Geauga Lake park spokesman Bryan Edwards was quoted in The Plain Dealer stating that X-Flight and Steel Venom TOGETHER gave 438,000 rides rides in 2006..

Just thought I would mention the fact that Steel Venom was closed half the year, and X-Flight of course had daily mechanical issues, resulting in very limited capacity. 438,000 riders could mean people didn't want to ride, or it could mean that people who wanted to ride, couldn't.

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:34 PM


Captain Hawkeye said:
Moving those coasters does not remove their costs from CF's books--it merely relocates them.

Yeah, to profit centers that are contributing to the bottom line, the way any of them do when they get a new ride.

But that doesn't change CF's bottom line--the costs of those coasters are still on CF's books. It doesn't matter to any investor from which park those costs come from.

CF spent $165m on GL and the new waterpark. NOTHING they can do will change the fact that they have spent that money. You can charge it to GL or DP or one of the California waterparks, but CF spent the money. Period.

The question is how does CF recoup the costs. Leaving those rides at GL drew 700,000 guests. Will they increase attendance at the parks they are shipped to by 700,000? If not, CF's numbers will take a hit. Those costs are already sunk.

Let's assume that CF depriciates/amortizes the $165m over 20 years. That is a charge of $21 mil to CF's bottom line if GL opens or not. Closing GL does not get CF its $165m back.

And with GL taking in $29m in revenue unless its variable costs are less than $8m, GL will lose money. However, if its variable costs are less than $29m it will generate a positive cash flow even if it is operating at an accounting loss. That is why CF always says they consider EBITDA (earnings before Interest, Taxes, Depriciation & Amortization) to be a better measure.


Even before labor savings and land sales they could be saving over $60 to $70 million in equipment costs (if they had to replaced the repurposed equipment with new or used equipment). Didn’t they lay off 40 full-time employees, if the each averaged a salary of $35,000 in pay and benefits; they just cut $1.4 million from the fixed costs of the park. Labor is almost always one of the largest expense in a business.

Umm. . .no.

They have already paid for the equipment. That money doesn't come back if they relocate them. Do you think they would have put an Impulse in Dorney if they weren't closing GL? Or a $14m invert in MiA?

Yes, they can save $1.4m per year in saleries as you state. And they LOSE $29m per year in revenue. That is a net COST of $27.6m


Attendance at Worlds of Fun decreased 10 percent in 2005 compared with the previous year, the Kansas City amusement park's owner said.

Worlds of Fun had 800,000 gate admissions, park owner Cedar Fare LP said in a news release Wednesday


WoF hasn't topped 1m in at least 5 years (longer than CF has owned GL)--until 06 when they installed a $14m coaster.


I don't think the discussion is whether or not they were making money, I think we can all agree they were losing badly.

In God I trust. Everyone else must provide the data. NO ONE has shown that GL's cash flow was negative. It could be they think they can increase reveue at Cp and eliminate the variable costs at GL by more than GL's cash flow.

For the reasons state in the long post, I don't view that as a given. Six Flags sold off their "underperforming" parks and their financials through July were flat. Fixed costs don't go away. *** Edited 9/25/2007 3:37:27 AM UTC by Captain Hawkeye*** *** Edited 9/25/2007 4:25:29 AM UTC by Captain Hawkeye***


This Isn't A Hospital--It's An Insane Asylum!

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:39 PM
As far as additions to the waterpark at least none have been announced and there will be none for next year to answer an earlier post.

The problem is that its not going to come back with rides or anything besides maybe a select few. The problem is jobs are lost for alot of people. Which hurts their financial situation and also its going to hurt the city with a park that wont have the land developed at least for a year or two and get the city taxes.

That i understand as being a local. We that live in the area know how bad the economy is, it just seems that maybe they could have had a say in something or work out something for some kind of revenue for the city and jobs for someone.

Ensign i am still upset with the decision, probably just as much as you. I wish i could always say there were more people like us in the area. I dont know if it was the struggle of the economy or what truly brought the downfall of the park. But it will be missed and alot of people are still talking about the park. I dont know if its Cedar Fair giving up or what but Geauga Lake will be missed by many of us.


Resident Arrow Dynamics Whore

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:40 PM
Pete's avatar You know, the idea of an entertainment oriented lifestyle center for the Geauga Lake land sounds kind of exciting to me.

My wife and I enjoy Legacy Village a lot, and enjoy Melting Pot, Stir Crazy or Brio for a night out. Not sure if Legacy Village is too close to Geauga Lake to make a lifestyle center there work, but something like that with more emphasis on entertainment/dining and less on shopping could really fly.

Would Cedar Fair develop, own and run it? Who knows, but if they do and it becomes a big money maker, it would certainly make shareholders happy.

A year round facility that gets away from amusement parks but fits with the "entertainment" of Cedar Fair Entertainment Company could possibly be golden for the company.


I'd rather be in my boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:50 PM

Jeff said:
Interestingly enough, the local Fox affiliate called me about an interview regarding some of the older rides and the park. As much as I'd enjoy a little attention whoring, I told her that I honestly had no strong opinions about it. She asked if I knew anyone else local, and I told her, no, the people who care the most don't even live in the area.

You run two coaster fan sites and you couldn't come up with ONE person that could say something nice about Geauga Lake that was local? Did you even stop to think about it for a second?

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:52 PM

Jeff said:
Locals on a Geauga Lake fan site make a better statistical representation?

Well, let's see. We have, I'm guessing, maybe 50 or 60 people over there regularly posting their grief and anger over the closing. Here at Coasterbuzz, which we'll call neutral territory, opinion seems to be close to evenly divided. And as far as I know, there is no Ihategeaugalake.com web site.


My author website: mgrantroberts.com

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:58 PM
joe.'s avatar I'm sure there's a lot of people who may be local to that area who could be possibilities, halltd, but how many of them would actually want to go on TV to spout off what will amount to maybe fifteen seconds of looking like a tool in a broadcast? I can't think of a single person I know on this site who would actually go on TV about this topic. Public outcry or not, I really doubt it'd make any real difference.

All I can picture is a physical representation of Catherine's "enthusiast" impression from a podcast way back... and it makes me laugh.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:31 AM


Captain Hawkeye said:


Even before labor savings and land sales they could be saving over $60 to $70 million in equipment costs (if they had to replaced the repurposed equipment with new or used equipment). Didn’t they lay off 40 full-time employees, if the each averaged a salary of $35,000 in pay and benefits; they just cut $1.4 million from the fixed costs of the park. Labor is almost always one of the largest expense in a business.

Umm. . .no.


They have already paid for the equipment. That money doesn't come back if they relocate them. Do you think they would have put an Impulse in Dorney if they weren't closing GL? Or a $14m invert in MiA?


First off, MiA is not officially getting anything, not even a trashcan for next season. Second if CF was buying new, No they wouldn't, but only paying relocation and install costs maybe. The most expensive attraction they ever installed was a $4 million raft ride in 2006.

DP would being getting a $14 million something, if they were not getting the relocated ride from GL that will cost them for relocation, rehab and install, still cheaper then new.

No, the money doesn’t come back; they just don’t spend it to get it at the other park now, so the money is not spent. So if DP (or another park) was going to spend $14 Million for attraction X, but gets a relocated attraction X from a closed park for a install cost of $4 million, they just save $10 million on capital improvements and that $10 million stays in the bank as an asset.

When you quoted my comment you forgot the first part was talking about replacement costs, if you spent it already and can use it else where and not buy new or used items for that location that is where the savings come from. Used Top Spins are list at ITAL website for about $500,000, a new one costs more, but that's money they don't have to spend now because they have one to use at another park already payed for.



Captain Hawkeye said:
Yes, they can save $1.4m per year in saleries as you state. And they LOSE $29m per year in revenue. That is a net COST of $27.6m


Then there is the decrease seasonal labor cost, decrease in utilities/maintenance cost for closed section of the park, that all adds up to millions a season.



Captain Hawkeye said:

I don't think the discussion is whether or not they were making money, I think we can all agree they were losing badly.

In God I trust. Everyone else must provide the data. NO ONE has shown that GL's cash flow was negative. It could be they think they can increase reveue at Cp and eliminate the variable costs at GL by more than GL's cash flow.

For the reasons state in the long post, I don't view that as a given. Six Flags sold off their "underperforming" parks and their financials through July were flat. Fixed costs don't go away. *** Edited
9/25/2007 3:37:27 AM UTC by Captain Hawkeye*** *** Edited 9/25/2007 4:25:29 AM UTC by Captain Hawkeye***



The individual park numbers don't get released, so we will never know.

Six Flags sold the parks and their assets, not relocated them to other properties and they still purchased new equipment, instead of repurposing current company assets.

*** Edited 9/25/2007 5:50:53 AM UTC by otterkpr***

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:52 AM
*pokes his head over the table*

Can I still have the Cornhole Toss? ;)


eat. sleep. ride! - Coaster apparel and accessories.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:40 AM
^Only if you are un-biased in this whole situation. :)

My favorite MJ tune: "Billie Jean" which I have been listening to alot now. RIP MJ.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:14 AM

Pete said:You know, the idea of an entertainment oriented lifestyle center for the Geauga Lake land sounds kind of exciting to me.My wife and I enjoy Legacy Village a lot, and enjoy Melting Pot, Stir Crazy or Brio for a night out. Not sure if Legacy Village is too close to Geauga Lake to make a lifestyle center there work, but something like that with more emphasis on entertainment/dining and less on shopping could really fly.Would Cedar Fair develop, own and run it? Who knows, but if they do and it becomes a big money maker, it would certainly make shareholders happy.A year round facility that gets away from amusement parks but fits with the "entertainment" of Cedar Fair Entertainment Company could possibly be golden for the company.

Bingo, Movie Cinema Several quality restaurants and shops in existing buildings, You could even make the 50s area boardwalk buildings top floors condos and add a few around the lake expecially back behind RWB.

Just get rid of the whole closed gate, Pay for parking ect. Make a running trail all the way around the lake and this park- FEC would do fine

Why are they building all these shops, restaurants ect accross the street? Build them there! Of course some rides wouldn't do well on a ticket basis. There have to be some changes but getting people in the door is the key. Oh wait, I said eliminate the doors. Have something there that operates all year and has mulit purpose. The parents are shoping, The kids are riding.

IMAGINATION! CF has none If it doesn't set records, They want no part of it.

Yeah its a cheap shot but I think sevral BAD and poorly researched plans caused this.
Chuck

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:50 AM
eightdotthree's avatar What makes anyone think that something that huge could work in that market? You are talking about something larger than City Walk and Downtown Disney. The market just isn't big enough for it.

The idea is cool, but lets face it, its just a pipe dream.


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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:55 AM

Ensign Smith said:
And as far as I know, there is no Ihategeaugalake.com web site.

I think kraxleridah runs that website.

I've been a local all my life and really don't have much to contribute. I'm upset that the park is closing as it is the park I grew up with. I'm saddened that one of my favorite roller coasters may be bulldozed. But when all is said and done, I could just feel that the park was going slowly downhill since 2004. My visits got less and less frequent. This year, I visited twice, down from 25 or so back in the SF era. I still enjoyed the park, but the "Geauga Lake of old" was long gone. I found myself gravitating more towards Waldameer, Kennywood and even Seabreeze for my "classic park fix". Heck, Darien Lake seems more like the GL of old than GL itself did.

I mentioned this elsewhere- I won't be boycotting CF parks, but I will be spending more time east of Ohio in 2008.

Ray P.

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:01 AM
Raven-Phile's avatar

eightdotthree said:
What makes anyone think that something that huge could work in that market?...

The idea is cool, but lets face it, its just a pipe dream.


That's funny, because there's already 2 similar areas (minus any rides) within a half hour-45 minutes of the place, and they seem to work very well.

http://www.crockerpark.com/

http://www.legacy-village.com/

-Josh


R.I.P LeRoi Moore 9/7/61 - 8/19/2008
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