Cedar Point Math & Science Week

Well this derailed quickly.

I must say most of my comments have already been states by Andy and Mike. Not feeling quite awake enough to write a coherent response of my own.

I honestly don't remember if my school did a cedar point trip when I was younger. Geauga Lake would have been more likely, I think. I never really had a problem going while schools were there because it was usually easy to avoid the giant groups of neon colored shirts by pacing your day differently. I'm surprised that some schools stayed past 5pm though. Usually the park becomes a ghost town by then.

The entire basis of faith is believing in things you cannot see, touch, know, etc. Martin Luther King, Jr said that faith is taking the first step even when you can't see the whole staircase. It's about letting go of the need to know everything and just be.

I really can't imagine my life without faith. It's like oxygen to me. Without it, I might go insane trying to get to the "truth" of all things.

The deal is, no matter what drives your faith, you need to have it to survive. You can't know all things. So some find faith in religions, some spirituality, some science, some in luck, others still just in themselves.

But just because you can't see God in the sense that we see other things doesn't mean he doesn't exist or isn't true. It's been said before, but it's the same way with science. Many of the truths in science have been disputed as untrue over time. That doesn't negate science, though.

I know that God exists. But I know it in a way that I will never be able to explain in an intellectual debate. It's on a whole different level than that. And quite frankly, that works for me.

God just always felt infinitely more female to me - the whole "creation of life", the nurturing, caring, loving, forgiving God just doesn't seem to play into what I perceive to be the more masculine mindset.

Carrie hit it on the head. Faith is such a difficult thing to describe, but it keeps me going.

I actually think that faith is often where the hang-up is. I define faith as believing in that which I cannot see. It's trust on a whole new level. I think for a lot of people who are skeptical of Christianity, grasping the "I'm okay with not having some sort of physical, tangible evidence" concept is such a hard thing to do. However, that's at the core of Christianity.

As far as believing in God being dangerous, I strongly disagree. Have some of history's great atrocities been done in the name of religion? Absolutely, but even in that case, that's blaming an entire religion for the actions of a fraction of its followers. However, as has also been mentioned, great acts of generosity and kindness are done in the name of God as well. I would say that yes, some people do it because they're commanded to do so, but I think that a lot of people find fulfillment in it.

Take Coasting for Kids as a great example. I'm not doing it just for the fun of a roller coaster marathon and I'm not doing it just because God wants Christians to be charitable. I'm doing it because I have the opportunity to help people in need doing something I love.

Another example is how after our Sunday morning services, a few members of the church put all the chairs away. I enjoy helping out. Am I doing it solely because God commanded me? No. I have a willingness beyond obedience to do it. I have the ability. My schedule doesn't necessarily allow me to participate in other ministries. As such, if I can do one thing to help, I'm happy to do it, and again, not just because I'm told I have to do so. I guess the way to look at it is that people who do things just because they're told to probably don't have a good attitude while doing it. I'd like to think the fact that I don't mind doing it, or dare I say enjoy it, implies that there's more than just obedience driving me to do it.

What I find fascinating is how the two extremes (creationists vs. atheists) always seem to "carry the banner" in these arguments and most of the time the opinion of a majority of the American public (believe in God and Darwin) dont ever enter the conversation. Kudos to coasterbuzz for having the most amount of moderates chime in then any other website Ive seen this debate on.

For the record, I believe in God and and evolution (having gotten a graduate degree in a biological science.) As someone already said, take away the strict definition of "day" and put Genesis Chapter 1 as being written for nomads thousands of years ago and you will realize that the order science says the universe was created in, and what the Bible says is awfully similar, and in my opinion too similar to be just coincidence. But that is where faith comes in.

The Christians on Coasterbuzz are more moderate, multicultural, accepting of science, LGBTs, feminism, etc., than the vocal minority that gets almost all the airtime. It's my opinion the the more moderate (progressive, liberal?) factions of Christianity actually compose the majority of Christians. But let's face it, they get better ratings.

The "Nuns on the Bus" really speak to the majority of Christianity, IMO.

We will be taking our religion back. I have faith.

Carrie J. said:

It's about letting go of the need to know everything and just be.

See, this bugs me, and I think it really factors into this dangerous mindset we were discussing in the evolution vs creationism debate. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "because god" I think is a pretty terrible on a multitude of levels. It's intellectually lazy. Can you imagine what our society would be like today if nobody sought answers to life's questions? Humans are supposed to be curious creatures, and that curiosity responsible for us being where we are today as a species.

I'm certainly not alleging that all religious people are this way, I know that many are not. But that kind of thinking does nothing for mankind other than ensuring that people remain mindless sheep who will do nothing but blindly follow the word of the church.

Yes, there is definitely a spectrum, and to your point, some if that spectrum does just let the world happen to them. It's not everyone, though.

As a KMFDM lyric once said: "Maybe we should stop praying for someone to save us and start saving ourselves."

I agree with that. Reminds me of this story/parable:

There was a small town that had heavy rains in the forecast for at least a week. The rains came and the flood waters started to rise. Town leaders decided that they needed to evacuate the entire town. So they went around town in boats taking people to higher ground. They came to the town church where the pastor was sitting on the top step to the church with his feet in the water. He refused to get into the boat saying that the Lord his God would save him. So reluctantly, the boat left.

The waters continued to rise. Another boat came to the church. Rising water had chased the pastor to the roof of the church. The mayor of the town was in the boat this time and pleaded with the pastor to climb into the boat so he could be taken to safety. But again the pastor refused saying that the Lord his God would save him. As there were others still in need of rescue, the boat left.

The rains continued and the water continued to rise. The pastor was now chased to the church steeple. Rescue workers brought in a helicopter to save him. The state's governor pleaded with him using a bullhorn to climb into the rescue basket. But again the pastor refused. Yelling back that he knew the Lord his God would save him.

The waters contune to rise and the pastor drowns. When he gets to the pearly gates, he was very angry at God. He asked God why he made him look like such a fool to the world. He believed and had faith that God would rescue him but God abandoned him. God said to him "What do you mean? I sent two boats and a helicopter."

CP Chris said:

See, this bugs me, and I think it really factors into this dangerous mindset we were discussing in the evolution vs creationism debate. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "because god" I think is a pretty terrible on a multitude of levels. It's intellectually lazy. Can you imagine what our society would be like today if nobody sought answers to life's questions? Humans are supposed to be curious creatures, and that curiosity responsible for us being where we are today as a species.

I'm certainly not alleging that all religious people are this way, I know that many are not. But that kind of thinking does nothing for mankind other than ensuring that people remain mindless sheep who will do nothing but blindly follow the word of the church.

It's all part of my plan to lure people to a mindless sheep-like state so that I can then go on and take over the world... the way God intended. ;-)

I assure you, I am far from intellectually lazy. And I have faith. Take some time with your curious, problem-solving mind to figure out how both of those things can be true. :-)

All it would take is a being superior enough to us to seem amazing to convince us it were God.

No real point. Just something that popped to mind reading through this. I mean with our technology we could go back in time and seem God-like to past peoples.

As a practicing atheist (smile), I often find the arrogance and condesending attitude of atheists towards those of faith to be a big turn off. It seems to have gotten really bad lately.

My final thought is that, as an atheist, I believe I have faith (in the sense that we're defining it here) too. I can't prove to you there is no God, but I feel it. I believe it. I sense it. It just seems right. I not going to get book-smart on your ass or yell, "Science!" until I'm blue in the face. I know there is no God the same way believers know there is - I have faith.

And more to what Jeff is saying, I also have faith in myself. I tend find myself more reliable than God. When stuff needs done, I usually get myself the best results. I have faith in me to make the positive changes in my life. I am my own strength. I worship at the altar of Gonch.

That's all - just some stuff that came to mind while reading through this thread.

I'm encouraged that no one has complained about how off-topic this thread has gotten. Everyone seems to be chiming in with his or her thoughts about religion/atheism and I think that's great.

Gonch, I think part of the problem is that religion and faith are such sensitive and personal issues that anytime someone questions them it automatically comes across as condescending, arrogant, mean spirited, etc., no matter how gracious and tactful one tries to be. We must not be afraid of simply sharing ideas, even if there is the potential to give offense, but of course we must not intentionally try to be offensive either. Although I will say, and maybe you'd agree, that in the face of claims such as that the earth is 6000 years old, sometimes condescension is an appropriate response.

As to your point that you have faith that there is no God, I would claim, as I have all along, that you have good reasons to believe that there is no God, reasons based on logic and evidence, whereas the reasons for believing that God does exist are emotional. The idea of an all-powerful guiding hand, an eternal and infinitely blissful afterlife, is appealing to many people, and because they want to believe it's true, they are convinced it is. I know I'm generalizing (and sounding arrogant) and that this isn't the case for everyone, but it seems that there is a strong link between the belief that God exists and the desire for him to exist. If there's one thing I will say 'til I'm blue in the face, it's that hope, yearning, and wishful thinking do not make something true.

Lord Gonchar said: I worship at the altar of Gonch.

Don't we all, though, on some level?

Bakeman31092 said:

I believe that people are naturally good.

Again, I don't know what people you hang out with. If you don't teach a child the difference between right and wrong, what happens? They take toys, hit each other, bite, eat too much candy instead of vegetables, etc. People need to be taught good. They are born selfish, ignorant, bigoted, vengeful, and mean. (Now, that doesn't mean there aren't ways to teach morals outside of religion. I grew up without religion and considered myself a moral person.)

Altruism is innate (studies have shown that it is innate in primates and other animal species as well).

Until you get betrayed. Then you stop working with that person and/or get them back (iterated prisoner's dilemma simulations and such). Whereas Jesus, decided we should turn the other cheek. So there is a difference there.

it's that points in favor of the usefulness of religion are not a) convincing in their usefulness, and b) points in favor of the trueness of religion.

I feel like your argument in support of a) is "I think most people would still run food pantries, even if Jesus didn't tell them to" which is both unverifiable and I happen to believe incorrect. Re: b) see below

If all religious doctrines, all belief in God, were wiped out overnight, tensions would ease in this country, in the Middle East, and all over the world.

By your own argument, that doesn't make it true though. And I happen to believe it's false.

Bakeman31092 said:

you have good reasons to believe that there is no God, reasons based on logic and evidence, whereas the reasons for believing that God does exist are emotional... it seems that there is a strong link between the belief that God exists and the desire for him to exist. If there's one thing I will say 'til I'm blue in the face, it's that hope, yearning, and wishful thinking do not make something true.

Sure. This doesn't sound arrogant at all. This is actually something I ask myself on a very regular basis because I know there are a lot of things that I wish were true (even about God himself) which aren't and I see a LOT of people believing things are true simply because they want them to be. (i.e. "That was a sign from God that I'm supposed to do <this thing I wanted to do anyway>")

However, why are logic and "evidence" more important for truth than emotions? And ultimately, at this point in history, what does truth even mean? Will anyone ever be able to say through logic and "evidence" whether Jesus actually died and came back? And since the answer is obviously no (we can't verify or deny) what does it even mean to talk about whether it's true?

Lord Gonchar said:

All it would take is a being superior enough to us to seem amazing to convince us it were God.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke

Jeff said:

As a KMFDM lyric once said: "Maybe we should stop praying for someone to save us and start saving ourselves."

Pray like everything depends on God. Work like everything depends on you. -John Wesley

Edit: I think Wesley also added, "Post like you've been gone for a few days on a camping trip."

That John Wesley quote exactly describes how I handled (and am still handling) the recent situation with losing my job and selling my house (we got a contract on our house, then I found out I was being laid off). I prayed daily, putting the situation in His hands knowing that he would see me through it. And I worked my tail off to find myself a job. I just accepted an offer yesterday for a better opportunity than I could have expected.

Some would argue that it was all me. I don't believe that.