Cedar Point Math & Science Week

LostKause said:

It's a lot nicer of a thought that when we die, we turn off, like a light in the dark, and cease to exist...

I should have reread my post before submitting. I didn't mean to say that it's a lot nicer of a though. I don't know what the word was supposed to be there, but it was not nicer. I am going to go back and edit it. The point of that paragraph was to show that I can't understand where the energy goes after we die.

And as to other religions, they could all be right in there own special way. Maybe it is beyond human comprehension.

I really do think that when I die, God will pat me on the back, smile, and tell me what I got wrong. He could very well chuckle and say to me, "Oh Travis, did you REALLY believe that the Earth was Billions of years old?"

Vater said:

Agreed, Andy. However, I don't believe Christianity is a religion. Krause has it right on most accounts. Simply put, Christianity is the belief that Jesus died for us, and accepting that He is our savior. That, and only that, is how we achieve eternal life.

I understand your point, and I think it further illustrates my point. In the ideal, your sentiment is great (though I would also say there's more to Christianity than just that). However, I don't think you can ever really separate that ideal sentiment from the reality of it's implementation by broken humans trying to do right but inevitably failing over and over and over.

Everyone with any sense of logic knows that evolution isn't real.

After all, science is a liar sometimes.

(NSFW/Sorry about the quality.)

Carrie J. said:

I just prayed for all of you. ;-)

I'm rubber, you're glue. Bounces off me and sticks to you.

Nya!

:-) I'll take it.

ApolloAndy said:
I don't think you can ever really separate that ideal sentiment from the reality of it's implementation by broken humans trying to do right but inevitably failing over and over and over.

Unfortunately, you're right. But I'd contest that the constant failing is the result of "Christians" treating it as a religion, most of the time without realizing it.

LostKause said:

I really do think that when I die, God will pat me on the back, smile, and tell me what I got wrong. He could very well chuckle and say to me, "Oh Travis, did you REALLY believe that Flashpass was an unfair concept?"

Fixed that for you.

LostKause said:

They don't want to admit that perhaps the Bible has been mistranslated, may have ideas that we can't understand out of context, or simply has had some things removed or added by forces who want to use religion to control people instead of enlighten people.

Control of the masses and explaining the unknown are the reasons religion was invented. It's fairly brilliant actually, use the fear of the unknown to keep the masses under control. Modern day science can now explain an awful lot of what was previously explained by religious myths, and it's not surprising that religion sees that as a threat to their ability to control their followers.

Nobody is saying that it sounds nicer to believe that when you die your body just shuts off and they toss you in a hole in the ground. The whole eternity in heaven thing sounds much nicer, and is probably the thing most responsible for keeping people drawn to religion this day and age. I find it all to be absurdly silly, but I don't necessarily have a problem with people believing in it if that's what it takes to make dealing with death easier on them. That kind of belief doesn't really affect anyone but themselves. However, I take major issue with trying to keep our society in the dark ages by brainwashing people to believe that science is bad. The whole evolution denying, 6,000 year old Earth thing is frankly a danger to our society being able to better itself.

I'm always amazed that at age 6 I could reconcile in Sunday school that, the reason the Bible was written as it was in terms of time lines was because it was the only thing the authors could wrap their head around, not because it was "fact." Indeed, since the Bible is selectively interpreted anyway, I don't see why any rational, educated adult can't see how creation and evolution can be the same thing.

You're assuming that religion and rationality are two things that often go hand in hand.

Can they? Absolutely, but in my experience, it's a rare exception.

Nothing on this planet is responsible for more war, death, and suffering than organized religions...all in the name of being "right" of course.

My eyes to rational thinking were opened very early. I was 7. Now mind you, I was raised by highly conservative Lutheran parents, so I spent quite a bit of time being recruited on Sundays and Wednesday evenings. One Wednesday, I asked our pastor a simple question, inspired by having watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom earlier that day with my friend David. (I guess George Lucas got my thinking cross-culturally). It went like this...

Me: "OK, so in order to get into heaven I need to believe that this guy Jesus died, and then came back to life, right?"

Pastor Luring: "Correct"

Me: "And there's no getting around that, right?"

Pastor L: "Correct"

Me: "OK, so let's say there's a 12 year old kid in India. He's never heard of this Jesus guy...why would he...and being a kid, he's never had the time to ponder other religions or decide to believe in what you're saying, much less be baptized".

Pastor L: "OK, go on..."

Me: "So let's say one day this kid goes out in the street, and gets trampled by an elephant and dies. Are you saying he goes to Hell?"

Pastor L took a week to answer my question, and in the end he said..."unfortunately yes"...and that was it. I laughed...I think mainly as a reaction to my mind being set free from the BS.

I'm still on a roller coaster site, right? :)

I would propose that while there are many like that pastor, there are also many who aren't at all like that pastor. Just like any group of people, there are many Christians I disagree with, many I can't stand, and many who are loving, caring, smart, rational people.

I couldn't agree with you more, Andy...they just seem to be a silenced minority in my experience.

Believe me, since leaving the nest, I've learned how to sniff out those I can jive with. :)

What if you get the chance to decide if you believe after you die? What if that kid who gets trampled by the elephant gets to stand before God and God tells him that Jesus died for his sins. Then God asks, "Do you believe?" If the kid answers yes, he gets to stay in Heaven, and if he answers no, then he gets to hang out with the devil in Hell.

That's just one way to answer the question. The answer is that it doesn't have to be answered. You either believe or don't believe. There are a few Christians who give the belief a very bad reputation.

I really believe that the whole thing is so indescribable and so far out there that humans can't fully comprehend it until they leave this life. It would be like trying to explain how a laser pointer works to a cat. They know that a moving dot is there and they know that they can interact with it, and maybe they even know that a human is controlling where it goes, but the cat is not smart enough to understand the science behind lasers.

I personally think there's way too much emphasis on what happens when we die and way too little emphasis on what happens as we live (especially given the relative amount that each was addressed in the bible).

What amuses me is (insert religion here) believing that their interpretation is the only way into this heaven place. Why do you assume you'll die and Jesus will be at the gates determining your fate based off of whether or not you believe in him? What if you get there and it's Muhammed or Joseph Smith or the Flying Spaghetti Monster holding the keys? The fact that each group insists it's their way or the highway and that everyone else has to be absolutely wrong is one of the first things that turned me against religion.

Well, again, certain segments of each religion make that claim. Other segments of each religion have more...liberal?...points of view.

I mean, you could rewrite your paragraph with sports fans, coaster enthusiasts, chess players, or just about any subgroup of humanity and I think we can choose not to let the few bad apples spoil the whole enterprise.

Vater said:

Unfortunately, you're right. But I'd contest that the constant failing is the result of "Christians" treating it as a religion, most of the time without realizing it.

That's definitely part of it, but humans have a pretty big capacity for messing things up in all kinds of different ways.

Andy, I would argue that you can and should keep those "liberal" points of view while jettisoning the fantasy and superstitious parts of religion, which are what really define religion. If you say that religion is about love, community, compassion and cherishing life, then I say that that's not religion, because I believe those things too yet I'm not religious.

Religion is the belief that there exists a supernatural deity that created the universe and, to varying degrees depending on which religion we're talking about, shows interest and intervenes in human affairs. This claim itself is not emotional or spiritual; it is a statement of fact. It is a truth claim about the nature of reality and the universe, the same reality that we all share. The reasons that people believe it are often times emotional or spiritual, but that is apart from what is actually being supposed. With this in mind, it must be said that there is no evidence to suggest that even the vaguest notions of a supernatural deity are true, let alone any of the specific details that each religion claims as true to the exclusion of all other religions.

You hit the nail on the head by saying that we should spend more time focusing on this life than on any potential afterlife. I totally agree with that. The problem is that you do believe there is an afterlife, whereas I don't. I believe this life is all we have, whereas you believe (I'm guessing) that there exists an eternal afterlife that is infinitely better than this life. Doesn't that belief put less value on this life?

I agree. Fantasy and superstition have no part in religion, spirituality, or whatever else. To claim that they are what makes religion, religion is inaccurate. Perhaps for some, that is the case, but not for all. In my view, spiritual, religion, whatever are about the transformation of the inner life much more than the transformation of the external circumstances. My goal is to be able to see the divine plan in everything, be at peace with it, and participate in it. My goal is not to make it happen or to change it or force it.

You claim that there's no evidence for a supernatural entity. I assume you mean scientific/sensory evidence? My counter is that not all things which exist or which matter can be verified scientifically. In fact, there are a lot of things which we humans "know" which are completely outside of the realm of verifyability and disprovability and yet are fundamentally important to our existance, happiness, productivity, etc. (Just for example, how do I verify my mom loves me and isn't just doing a really good job of faking it? And yet, I "know" it and it's incredibly important. And not everyone has to believe it for it to be "true" for me.)

I agree that it's very tricky to begin to make exclusive claims (e.g. "I am right, therefore you are not.") However, it's incorrect to say that all relgions and all religious people do this. All I claim is that "my life is better when it includes a relationship with a higher power and there exist some other people in the world who do not have a relationship with a higher power whose lives could also be improved by one."

And why does belief in an afterlife necessarily devalue this one? I would even argue the opposite. For instance, the fact that my parents' love for me is unconditional doesn't make me abuse it. I don't go around stealing from my parents, knowing they'll love me anyway. It makes me treasure it even more and want to live in a way that honors it.

My belief in the "hereafter" (which to me, is the perfection of this plane of existance, not the transport to a different one) is exactly what motivates me to help people in this life - because I believe that the transformation of a really messed up world into a really beautiful one is possible and therefore, I want to participate in its coming.

I have seen that hell is not just a place we go when we die; hell exists in the brokenness of lives in this world. I believe heaven can exist in this world as well in the healing of those lives and if I can be a tiny part of that for even one person then I will commit my life to it.

The capacity for humans to generalize and categorize can be dangerous, for sure. Too many people are too quick to lump all Christians, Muslims, etc. into meaning very stereotyped, narrow definitions. It wasn't until my college days that I learned that not every Christian, for example, has a "we're right and you're wrong" attitude.

And I think you're correct, Andy; and what you posted is all about faith, which is central to every religion I have ever observed.