Cedar Fair Racers
Making them both the same shoots that down.
Not really, because you still get the "why did you turn it around? I *loved* going backwards?" no matter how crowded the park is.. ;)
I only get to CP and KI once a year and last time I went to CP I was pretty dissappointed when we tried to ride Gemini, it was only running a single side - UGH - so frustrating. On one hand, i can understand the economy is crud, and in order to prosper you have to pinch your pennies, on the other hand, my expectations are that the park is going to run the ride as designed. And while the Allen coasters were not originally intended to run a backwards side, it has become my (and apparently many others) preferred way to ride.
Back in 1994 or 1995 at SFOG, they had all trains on the Scream Machine turned around backwards, and what a thrill. This was an inexpensive marketing idea that worked for a single season and I ATE IT UP! Cedar Fair's decision may lead to them turning one side around again on the Allen's, and using that as a marketing idea - just a thought.
Brian Noble said:
Folks may recall the Magnum collision in the rain recently; since then, at least Magnum and CCMR run only a single train when there is even a hint of rain...
That's an improvement over 15 years ago when one drop of rain would close every coaster in the park.
CoasterComet said:
I don't know when the Blue Streak trains went to PTC - but they were fitted with clap brakes in 1994 and really neutered/bastardized in 1995 with individual ratchet bars, individual seat belts, seat dividers and headrests
The Blue Streak trains got squeeze brakes and a flo-thru station in 1994 when Raptor opened and all attention was on that. The headrests, ratchets, belts, and dividers came in 1996 when Mantis opened and all attention was on that.
ShiveringTim said:
Did PTC ever approve the backwards running of their trains? I know CP sent the Blue Streak trains to PTC for a refurb a few years back (2001?). I wonder if they'd like to do the same for the KECO "racer" trains, but PTC wouldn't touch them since they are run against manufacturer specifications? Just an idea.
This could be the guts of what's happening now. Even though PTC had a good working relationship with KECO/Paramount, I am sure I heard Tom Rebbie publicly state sometime in the mid-late 1990s, when a question about backwards trains was posed to him, that PTC did not stand behind its cars if they were turned to run backwards, and all parks that did that knew it. He also stated that if any park requested PTC to build a set of cars specifically designed to run backwards, he would build them.
On top of that, I think we've all observed that Cedar Fair has their own ideas and standards of safety and they generally exceed what some other parks have. And some of their "obsessions" make a lot of sense. That's not to suggest that other parks are less safe or that Cedar Fair is any more safe, but I have the impression that CF can sometimes be a bit over the top in their own entrenched beliefs. There's the rain thing. There's the rebuilding of tower supports on the Impulses (they were good enough for SF, but not for CF). There's the p_ _sing contests they reportedly got into with B&M over rewriting programs. I've heard park employees at CP make the ingrained and somewhat defensive statement that "Cedar Point's rides are like no one else's" when persistent guests question procedures and make comparisons to other parks. And I know I heard long, long ago that Cedar Fair just doesn't like the backwards thing, as if with the tone of 'we're not saying it's not safe, it's just not safe enough for us." I guess it took something as uber-engineered as Wicked Twister to let them ease up on their own standard.
So this racer thing is no surprise to me at all. I thought this would come sooner or later. I am no fan of backwards rides, I'm not completely convinced myself that running a PTC backwards as has been done on the racers is completely safe. But I have observed that the lines were pretty much equal and I am disappointed at the change. It definitely brings a loss of appeal to all three parks.
....and I still wish Paramount had bought CF... ;)
Brian Noble said:Chuck I don't know when you're at CP, but I'm hard-pressed to recall a time that Magnum has had a line and isn't running all available trains, unless they are running in "wet-worry-mode".(Folks may recall the Magnum collision in the rain recently; since then, at least Magnum and CCMR run only a single train when there is even a hint of rain...)
The last three times i've been there Magnum was running two, Gemini was running two trains on one side and Mantis I skipped all three times due to THE HUGEST WAIT OF THE DAY. They can say what they want but just like FOF three trains cut wait times emensley. Maybe only fifteen -thirty seconds per train but that adds up in a 1000 person line. I never waited more than a hour fifteen with a full Q when they ran three trains and the shortest wait time I seen for it was a hour fifteen.
Going to give em another shot this year as some things had actually improved like friendlyness and food but their ride capacity is only run at peak on weekends anymore.
As for Magnum, Maybe it's time for a upgrade in the braking system. There are three blocks pror to the station, I don't understand why they can't run three trains with five blocks on the coaster.
Doesn't bother me since I don't like wood coasters running backwards (it eliminates the visuals, as I find those very important to the wood coaster experience) but it's a shame since the backwards-running racers seem popular.
I'd rather see both sides running forward and consistently racing than see one side running backwards. I doubt that'll happen, though.
*** Edited 3/7/2008 5:31:45 PM UTC by Vater***
Disney, being the most popular theme parks get front page news for any incidents. Yet, they didn't go as far as Universal or Cedar Fair in their safety changes.
Look at DLR and WDW, the only rides with seatbelts are those where they are the only restraints, except for the Maliboomer (but that's a S&S thing I guess). None of the coasters got extra seatbelts and yet... I haven't heard of anyone just getting ejected from them, unless there's a mechanical failure. Without extra seatbelts and very fast loading, they can run 12 trains on Space Mountain at DL, 12 cars a track for Space Mountain WDW, 5 trains on Big Thunder Mountain, California Screamin', 4 trains on Rock n Roller Coaster and Expedition Everest. Also, all their rides work on the idea that stacking is BAD and will probably cause a ride shutdown if a few trains stacks. So, that means that the cast members can't slack off!
Disney doesn't shut down their coasters under the rain. I rode Expedition Everest under pouring rain last year and beside the stinging of the train... I was alright.
Splash Mountain still operates without restraints, yet Universal modified Ripsaw Falls logs to add lap bars...
Why can't other companies follow Disney example?
There are exceptions, but most (e.g. the RnRCs) have exactly the same restraints as non-Disney rides from the same manufacturers, and some are even less pleasant (Screamin's horsecollar vs. Maverick's rollcage+belt)
*** Edited 3/7/2008 6:23:38 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
Cedar Fair attaches seatbelts to everything that can possibly have them attached, from ferris wheel seats to kiddie rides to roller coasters that already have other restraints. I can't wait to see what they do to Behemoth - the chain doesn't yet have a B&M hyper, and I think every other coaster in the chain that doesn't have an overhead restraint has a seat belt separate from the lap restraint. They even slapped them on the Mack mice and the Miler Taxi Jams.
It's probably rooted in two reasons: (1) it's a backup against the odd chance of catastrophic lap bar failure however unlikely that is, and (2) in case of incident and the belt is opened, it shows intent to disable a safety system on the part of the rider and gets the park off the hook somewhat.
I should also note, the reason why incidents at Disney parks get into the press is because they happen. So do incidents at CF parks. Except Cedar Point, which hasn't had a notable injury on a ride in as long as I can remember.* Surely that says something and reinforces to the CF bigwigs that what they're doing works.
*(knocking, scraping, caressing, hugging & kissing wooden desk leg)
Absimilliard said:Why can't other companies follow Disney example?
I don't think anyone else spends the time in ride/train/station design, or spends the money in staffing. Those are the *major* things Disney simply does better than anyone else...consistently.
My name is Mike, and I'm a coasterholic.
Splash Mountain and the various dark rides got a very interesting system in addition to cameras to keep track of people inside the ride. They got pressure mats near every area where a camera can't see (or in the case of Phantom Manor at DLP, EVERYWHERE) that are so sensitive that a dropped umbrella will set the system off.
The ride stops, a loud alarm rings inside the control tower and a cast member grabs a flash light and runs to where the intrusion happened. Phantom Manor which I worked on got an upgrade in 2001 where the control dispatch is a touch screen that will actually show you where in the ride the mat got triggered. I did that run once and some lady had dropped her camera on the ground.
Systems like that as well as electronically locked seatbelts on the EMV, simulators and TOT are Disney only things that means they can do away with redundant systems like CF and SF use. Just look at the attendance of the parks and its amazing how little incidents there are.
I can definately agree that CF takes their safety concerns very seriously. The only real complaint I have in the excessive seatbelts for no reason and always getting yelled out to take off my hat when at any other park I've never been told that. All in all, not big problems. I remeber a few years back when PKI began added seatbelts to rides that previously didn't have them (Racer, and Beast which has NO need for belts). I remember going to CP for the first time the summer after that and seeing ALL their coasters with extra belts and thinking PKI was more obviously more lenient, but not to the extreme of feeling unsafe. Now on the other hand, the six flags park I visited I thought for sure I or someone around me was going to die in one ride or another. Maybe it was just because of the "uber-safe" parks I'm used to or because their employees have a complete lack of interest in what they are doing. Regardless there was a sense of, "Man, this is kind of scary," and not in a good way.
As far as Disney and even Universal, I think they have their priorities in line. They factor in not only safety and comfort but more importantly (especially at these parks) capacity. I think they have a well balanced approach. A good example is the log ride at Disney compared to IOA. Both good, but there is a HUGE difference in intensity, at least for me. I remember the Disney flume being much more family friendly with a anti-climatic final drop. IOA logs on the other hand, scared the crap out of me and made me wish I had a lap bar, which doesn't surprise me that they added them (not sure how that affected capacity though?).
Anyways, I think CF is doing this for simple economic issues and only time will tell if the net effect after customer feelings is positive.
I remember them adding seat dividers awhile back, and was *going* to say something earlier today when this was mentioned....obviously I'm not using my IoA pass frequently enough....
Charles Nungester said:
The last three times i've been there Magnum was running two, Gemini was running two trains on one side and Mantis I skipped all three times due to THE HUGEST WAIT OF THE DAY. They can say what they want but just like FOF three trains cut wait times emensley. Maybe only fifteen -thirty seconds per train but that adds up in a 1000 person line. I never waited more than a hour fifteen with a full Q when they ran three trains and the shortest wait time I seen for it was a hour fifteen.Going to give em another shot this year as some things had actually improved like friendlyness and food but their ride capacity is only run at peak on weekends anymore.
As for Magnum, Maybe it's time for a upgrade in the braking system. There are three blocks pror to the station, I don't understand why they can't run three trains with five blocks on the coaster.
As a ride operator at Cedar Point for the last three seasons (the last two being at Magnum), I can assure you that Magnum will ALWAYS run all three trains if they are able to run. The only reason a train/trains will be taken off are for maintenance reasons and weather (don't get me started on their ridiculous rain policies...) Magnum is NOT one of the rides that lowers their number of trains if attendance is low. Even if we don't have enough people in our queue to consistently fill all rows, we won't take a train off - we will chain off a car or two so that we don't have to worry about those cars and seatbelts getting tangled, causing a setup. I don't know what time of year you were going (I've never worked at the Point in its later months of operation in September or October so I don't know what operations are like then) - maybe you went in the few weeks post-crash in 2007 when one train was undergoing bodywork, but I find it extremely hard to believe that for three visits in a row you encountered two-train operation on Magnum. Was it all day? Maybe you just wanted to embellish your story to give it more strength?
Gemini runs one side from opening until 11:30am. It will go up to both sides from 11:30 until roughly 8:00pm, depending on crowds. Did you see only one side operating at one time during the day and assume that it would be like that for the rest of the day? Why do they do this? There simply aren't enough people that want to ride Gemini early in the morning and late at night to justify both sides being open. Why have four trains running along the tracks during those times if there is only one or one and a half trainloads cumulatively between them?
Say all YOU want, but three trains on Mantis WON'T increase capacity. FoF is a different story - it doesn't take nearly as much time to load a FoF train as it does to load a Mantis train. A third train will ALWAYS stack behind the train in the station in three-train operation. Hitting interval, with full train loads, is next to impossible on Mantis in three-train op. Why? Because your average park-goer is an idiot and can't get themselves adjusted in a stand-up restraint in five seconds like us enthusiasts can who have done it a hundred times. Then you take into account the seatbelts (didn't used to be there) and loose articles. It can't be done, and a third train won't help.
Again, I've never been at the park in September or October, and I've heard they do things a little differently in those months. However, from what I've heard, staffing has 100% to do with that. *** Edited 3/7/2008 9:04:04 PM UTC by Dusa65***
My take on this is that they picked the wrong kind of ride to start with. They wanted the really steep drop? Get a Mack Water Coaster instead. They feature side by side seatings, lap bars and comfortable seats.
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