Cedar Fair announces Geauga Lake will be water park only

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How much did they invest in the ride side over that same time period? It's no wonder the water park is the most popular.

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I swear that some of you forget things very quickly. Six Flags put FIVE roller coasters in there. Where did that get them? The attendance went into free fall. Why would they keep building rides? Some of you harping on this are the same people who criticize the "build it and they will come" actions of both Six Flags and/or Cedar Point.

Hmmm. Let's see. I said how much did Cedar Fair invest in the ride side? I didn't say how many coasters did they build. Why does an investment have to mean new coasters? An investment could have been landscaping the "closed" sections of the park, a new restaurant, painting all the buildings, special events, a big marketing campaign, or a used flat ride to take up some space and add life to an empty midway.

I agree with everyone (and even said so) about them needing to take out the expensive coasters. But, you're saying Cedar Fair did everything they could possibly think of to bring people into the ride side. In reality, they didn't.

This is the same thing I've been harping on lately with Cedar Point. You can't just toss in a new ride and expect that to solve all your problems. You need to invest in the atmosphere of the park, the QUALITY of the park. I just don't see anything that Cedar Fair did to Geauga Lake to invest in the quality and/or atmosphere of the park to keep people coming back. If anything, they made it worse by just closing off massive parts of the park behind ugly fences. People notice this stuff and react. Obviously that was shown in the attendance.

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Jeff said:
That's an unattributed load of crap. You don't know that.

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I guess thats why you didn't quote the part where I give my reasons for believing it. Cedar Fair laid off more than half of the group sales staff at the same time that they laid off the public relations woman and other full time staff. I'm sure if you check with any of your "insider" buddies they can confirm it. I'm sure they will try to spin it as some sort of "synergy" or other empty term, but the fact is that there were less people selling group outings in 2007 than 2006 or any year before.

Sure, maybe I don't have "proof" of their intentions, but neither do you. Group business doesn't sell itself, and Cedar Fair's decision to cut-back its group sales staff speaks volumes.

No one went to the park? I guess the 750K or whatever the number was were just phantoms? And regardless, the park drew people for years- before the Sea World days, during the Sea World days and after the Sea World days. Seems like it was a pretty sustainable business to me.

I didn't attend any Cedar Fair board meetings, so I don't know what the hell they were thinking, talking or planning. But I'm not viewing this as an industry insider, I'm viewing it as a customer and as a customer, CF didn't do much to the park. It's obvious that building five roller coasters didn't do the trick, but why wasn't something else attempted? Removing rides and leaving empty spaces behind seems pretty stupid to me and I'm sure a lot of other Geauga Lake customers felt the same way. If the park was too heavy on the thrill rides, some family rides should have been added instead. After a short two years, it became obvious they stopped caring.

I'd now like to express my feelings (or lack thereof) on this situation in song.

(sung to the tune of "Jimmy Crack Corn")

Geauga Lake closed and I don't care
Geauga Lake closed and I don't care
Geauga Lake closed and I don't care
The coasters goin' away

That popped into my head and I couldn't resist. :)

And before I get accused of telling people how to feel or not letting others express whatever - I'm not telling anyone else how to feel; just sharing my own take on the situation...through song even.

Jeff, so as far as the ride side goes, it was reasonable for Cedar Fair to assume that all they had to do was take out the trash once in a while and folks would start pouring back in? Any money they spent on the ride side was for minor, cosmetic stuff. They renovated the Juke Box Cafe! Woo wee!

Here's an interesting head game to play. You're the head of a corporation that has just purchased the closest large competitor to its flagship unit. You decide to close the place to get rid of the competition. What's the shortest amount of time you could leave the place running without being too blatantly obvious about your intentions? And what's the least amount of investment you could put into the competing unit in that time span, again without being too blatantly obvious? Now compare those answers to what we see on the ground.

And don't give us that garbage that Cedar Fair wouldn't shell out millions on a park just to close it. This happens in the business world all the time. Cedar Fair, after all, is just a business, so of course they would do it if they thought it would help their flagship park. Dick said as much in that interview this year. He stated that maybe the folks who love coasters would come to Sandusky for the rides (paraphrasing here).

It can't be proven that this is what Cedar Fair set out to do. But there is very little evidence to the contrary.

Rob, Im not saying 750K isnt a lot of people, but every time we went to GL it was absolutely dead. No life. Flatline.

In fact, after visiting last year, my wife and I both said "well, at least we saw it. Do you want to go back? No. Do you? No."

So...all I can say from my perspective is the two of us, who are lovers of many parks, rollercoasters, etc...both were so bored by GL that we actually agreed not to go back, even though we could go as many times as we liked with our passes.

I think that says something.

Here's a couple things I've noticed:

1 - Six Flags dumps too many rides, too quickly and too haphazardly into the park. This results in enthusiasts coming to CoasterBuzz and complaining.

2 - Cedar Fair buys Geauga Lake, and after a few seasons removes a couple of the aforementioned rides. This results in enthusiasts coming to CoasterBuzz and complaining.

3 - Cedar Fair announces removal of White Water Landing (before the end of the season). This results in enthusiasts coming to CoasterBuzz and complaining

4 - Cedar Point announces Maverick, which is not X type of coaster preferred by enthusiast Y. This results in enthusiasts coming to CoasterBuzz and complaining.

5 - Cedar Point adds SkyHawk, which is similar to maXair and not a 500 foot mega-looper. This results in enthusiasts coming to CoasterBuzz and complaining.

6 - Cedar Fair closes Geauga Lake for reason X (whether real or imagined). This results in enthusiasts coming to CoasterBuzz and complaining.

I think I see a trend with most news bulletins and this site.

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Also, it is expected that officials in a company are trading with inside information. They are allowed to. That is why they have to file when making any type of stock purchase/sale.

If Dick had gone and told several of his friends that GL was going to close and that they should buy stock, that would have resulted in a tether and house arrest. That is insider trading.

He did nothing illegal.

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Ensign Smith:
Here's an interesting head game to play. You're the head of a corporation that has just purchased the closest large competitor to its flagship unit. You decide to close the place to get rid of the competition. What's the shortest amount of time you could leave the place running without being too blatantly obvious about your intentions?

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Zero days. I wouldn't bother opening in the first place. What would be the point of wasting the time and money involved?

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And what's the least amount of investment you could put into the competing unit in that time span, again without being too blatantly obvious?

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Zero dollars.

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Now compare those answers to what we see on the ground.

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Compared to my answers it looks like CF gave it a go.

I love how the idea that some big charade happened actually seems reasonable to some of you guys. Do you realize how fiscally irresponsible that scenario is? Why would CF even bother in the first place? It's so illogical that it's humorous.

OhioStater, I can respect your opinion, but consider the reasons why the park was dead most of the time and you didn't feel compelled to return. The park once had many reasons for people to visit, so it's not like the potential wasn't there. That's what I'm getting at through all of this (or trying to, anyway)- there were many paths that Cedar Fair could have walked, and they pretty much avoided all of them.

Gonch, I'm not suggesting there is some X-Files-caliber conspiracy to be uncovered, it's just pretty easy to assemble the pieces of the puzzle and come up with the solution that many have.

*** This post was edited by Rob Ascough 9/24/2007 11:40:26 AM ***

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Rob A:
...it's just pretty easy to assemble the pieces of the puzzle and come up with the solution that many have.

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I think you're looking for pieces to assemble when the entire thing is put together right in front of you already.

Seriously, you've never made a decision on something and as it played out realized you made the wrong decision and backed out to cut your losses? I do it all the time.

Remember that CF took control of that park like 5 or 6 weeks before it was to open for the 2004 season. They busted ass to get that place open on time. Wouldn't it have been easier to make so easy excuses about time and prefecting the product and not opened it at all that year. From there it's pretty simple to stay closed. Instead they invested millions and millions of dollars on improving and operating the park for 4 seasons before calling it quits.

Seems to me a lot like they made a decision on something (buying the park) and as it played out realized they made the wrong decision and backed out to cut their losses.

The pre-assembled puzzle is the easiest to put together. :)

Rick Munarriz has summed up the situation very nicely on Motely Fool.

http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-income/2007/09/24/cedar-fair-throws-in-the-beach-towel.aspx

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Ensign Smith said:
It can't be proven that this is what Cedar Fair set out to do. But there is very little evidence to the contrary.

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And most of the contrary evidence is based in "trust" and "faith" that Cedar Fair had only the best intentions. Its tough arguing with a religious person about something seemingly illogical. When people have "faith" in something they tend to have a hard time letting go.
*** This post was edited by Paul Blackstone 9/24/2007 12:07:30 PM ***

What pieces are in front of me? I see a company that spent more than $100 million on a park and is pretty much throwing in the towel after just four years. Sure, I've made many decisions and backed out to cut my losses when I realized I'd made the wrong decision, but my mistakes don't come with a price that's close to that. If I was an investor, I'd question why so much was spent at the very beginning and the whole thing went up in smoke in just four years. Ammortize that "start up" cost over the four years the park operated, that's more than $25 million/year.

Maybe they should have spent an extra $5 or $10 million a year and made sure they did something to make it work?

Or maybe they saw an opportunity to eliminate a competitor by replacing it with a cheap-o waterpark and flipping the valuable land once the park's most significant assets were sent to other parks? Why that's so hard to consider is beyond me.

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Or maybe they saw an opportunity to eliminate a competitor by replacing it with a cheap-o waterpark

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A competitor???? Come on. Comparing GL to CP is like comparing the Columbus Clippers to the Cleveland Indians.

Not really, since one is a AAA farm team and one's been an MLB institution for close to a century.

How was Geauga Lake not competition for Cedar Fair? A lot of people live between the cities of Cleveland and Sandusky. A lot of those people may go to one amusement park. By eliminating Geauga Lake (the park that happens to be closest to the vast majority of people in that part of the state), those people have no choice but to go to Cedar Point.

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Paul B:
Rick Munarriz has summed up the situation very nicely on Motely Fool.

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Yes he does sum it up VERY well:

"Cedar Fair was dealt a bad hand, and played it poorly. It knew it was getting distressed goods when it bought Six Flags' Worlds of Adventure amusement park in 2004 for $145 million. The new park was too much for Six Flags to handle -- sadistically close to the Cedar Point thrill haven, and an unwieldy combination of the Geauga Lake traditional amusement park with Anheuser-Busch's Sea World Ohio marine life park."

That's pretty much exactly how it played out and this is exactly the scenario painted by Jeff and myself on this week's podcast (to be online later today).

AB pulling out of Sea World was the first straw. SF working their 'magic' on the combined gates was the second straw. CF's approach to the park was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

It's a series of small moves that leads to where we are right now. Lots of blame to place in lots of hands. CF just happened to be holding the cards when it became time to fold.

Gonch - Where are the "millions and millions of dollars" that they invested in any portion of the park that is closing? That's what I was getting at. I see the $25 million they spent on the water park that is staying open. I don't see any notable improvements on the ride side since they took over. How is that "busting ass" to bring the park back to life?

The busting of Cedar Fair ass was pretty much limited to getting rid of all traces of Six Flags and Six Flags-affiliated IP references. They had to get the Batman logos off the seats of Dominator. That was part of the deal.

Aside from abandoning a relatively new waterpark and spending money to build a new one on the other side of the lake, what did Cedar Fair invest in the amusement park? Sure, money was spent on ride removals, but they were all for the benefit of other Cedar Fair properties. Installing minimal new track on Villain and a new coat of paint on an old SLC doesn't seem like a significant investment to me. Am I missing anything else?

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Rob A:
Or maybe they saw an opportunity to eliminate a competitor by replacing it with a cheap-o waterpark and flipping the valuable land once the park's most significant assets were sent to other parks? Why that's so hard to consider is beyond me.

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Why is it so hard to consider? You answered that yourself in the same post:

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I see a company that spent more than $100 million on a park ...

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It goes back to my earlier comment. Why bother if the killing of the park was the goal in mind in the first place?

Cedar Fair's biggest mistake in my eyes? Buying the park in the first place. The park was doomed at that point. They should have let SF take the fall - in both costs and PR.

Look at it another way entirely. How many 10-coaster, 700+ acre parks exist that pull in well under a million people a year?

Exactly. And they don't exist for a reason.

If Geauga Lake had been managed correctly, it would have been competition for Cedar Point. The first year's when it was combined, it was a better all-around family park than Cedar Point ever will be,w ith much better pricing. Cedar Point is a thrill park. SFWoA had attractions for all ages when the animals were there, thrill rides and a water park all in one ticket. If the park had been clean, and they had good customer service and operations, it was a good formula to cut into the share of the market.

Cedar Fair may have intended this from the beginning, because they got the park at a discount price and they can get their investment back with the rides that were included in the purchase and the land. Lakeside property is valuable.