B&M mega train on looper...whens it going to happe
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Jeff said:
"I'm still waiting for anyone to give me a scientific reason indicating why OTSR's are safer than lap bars."
As a practicing engineer, I would venture to say that a "well designed, properly utilized" lap bar is as safe as a "properly utilized" conventional OTSR.
I add the "well designed, properly utilized" because, if someone was to stick the PTC type trains on a looper, there would be a much greater chance of falling out than with an OSTR. If the lapbar is not securely against the thighs (you know like how you enthusiasts like to leave *room* on your lapbars) you can easily slide out of those things. Heck, I almost sat in GregLeg's lap several times on Grizzly (PKD) opening day!
Now, only on the merits of securing riders, lap bars and OTSRs are equal (IMO). Therefore, there was NO influence or necessity to design a lap bar for inversions.
In my inductive imagination, this is what happened. Premier came up with the lapbar design SOLELY because they needed trains for Son of Beast. However, Premier was also not selling very many coasters; likely because the parks were not pleased with their current products (remember all the SFI Premier coaster went offline at the end of last season).
AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT, Premier decided to contact their last big customer (Paramount) and tell them about a way they could improve one of their rides. It was likely an easier sell to Paramount than to say SFI, because Paramount already had first hand experience with this restraint system. Premier, being the only company in the Sonny fiasco that Paramount wasn't upset with, was able to convince Paramount to give it a shot. Hell, maybe Premier even offered to do it cheap/free, because they were gambling that is would send a shockwave through the industry. That part I dont know. But I REALLY DOUBT, that Premier *initially* intended this restraint system to be featured on its LIM coasters. If they did, why didnt they use the system on Speed: The Ride?
Point is this, Arrow, way back in the early seventies, needed a way to secure looping riders that was simple and easy to operate. Maybe they wanted to simulate a 5-point harness, maybe they just wanted their coasters to look different than Schwarzkopf's; whatever the reason, they made OTSRs, thus providing a solution to that problem. All the other companies simply followed suit because "if it aint broke, dont fix it!" NECESSITY, prompted Premier to seek a different solution to a different (but related) problem. Hindsight told them that this invention had a beneficial side-effect. Stop all the yappin' and just be happy!
lata,
jeremy
--Who is getting a little tired of all the random "Amen"s floating around here....
So does that mean you're saying that OTSR's aren't necessary? :)
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
While I dont have data in front of me, it is logical to assume that a person riding in a train with just a lap bar is MORE LIKELY to hit their head on the seat in front of them than a rider in a similar train with an OTSR. That is why cars nowadays all have shoulder belts, to restrain the upper body in the event of a crash.
However, crashes of this kinda in a coaster are such rare occurances that I hardly think they are the situation that the restraints are desigined specifically to prevent (block braking takes care of most of that). Besides, on most coasters, the seats are made so that a rider bending over (when secured properly) will not incur major injuries resulting from a collision with the seat in front of them even on sudden stops (like when the ride sets up). So let's not even introduce that argument into the debate.
lata,
jeremy
--who is not anti-OTSR, but is definitely pro-LAPBAR. *** This post was edited by 2Hostyl on 5/29/2001. ***
However, crashes of this kinda in a coaster are such rare occurances that I hardly think they are the situation that the restraints are desigined specifically to prevent (block braking takes care of most of that). Besides, on most coasters, the seats are made so that a rider bending over (when secured properly) will not incur major injuries resulting from a collision with the seat in front of them even on sudden stops (like when the ride sets up). So let's not even introduce that argument into the debate.
lata,
jeremy
--who is not anti-OTSR, but is definitely pro-LAPBAR. *** This post was edited by 2Hostyl on 5/29/2001. ***
I'm sorry, I've been out riding roller coasters. 23 roller coasters in 3 different parks in a weekend that involved 794.8 miles of driving. I guess I missed out on a bit of a blow-up here.
Anyway, when I walked past the B&M booth at IAAPA last fall (I don't remember if this is while I was with Jeff or not) I notied that they had two lead cars sitting there...one for Wildfire, one for an unnanounced coaster we now know as Nitro. One of the B&M people...I think he was a sales rep...was standing there and I made the off-hand comment that I wanted to see them put "that train" (pointing to the Nitro car) "on that coaster" (pointing at the Wildfire car). I don't think the guy realized I was serious.
The Speedcoaster train design is an interesting one in that the lap bar is very carefully designed so that when you combine the angle of the seat and the position and dimensions of the lap bar, a vertical exit is virtually impossible. The riders' feet do not touch the floor, a feature which makes an intentional escape extremely difficult if not impossible as there is no way to get enough leverage to lift out of the seat. The angle between the seat back and the seat bottom is acute, and to come out from behind the lap bar would require the rider to slide straight back in the seat, which can't happen because the seat back is in the way. The rider is contained because the body simply does not bend in the places where it would need to bend to allow an exit from the seat. And the rider can't come out the front of the seat because the seat has a molded 'horn' to keep him from sliding forward...and the bottom of the lap bar completes the loop around both legs. It isn't even necessary for the lap bar to be tight against the rider's torso because all it really needs to do is prevent the thighs from straightening out relative to the torso.
Premier, S&S, and Schwarzkopf accomplish the same thing by holding the feet back in the car, though I think they went overboard with Son of Beast. Instead of using a 'deep' lap bar, these guys use a more conventional lap bar with a crosspiece just below the knees. Again, the purpose is to keep the legs wrapped around the front of the seat to make sure that no matter what happens, the rider still has a lap to be secured by the bar.
Consider this: Roller coasters and other rides have been going upside-down since about 1902. The shoulder bar was invented in 1975. So far, I have not found any evidence of any ride constructed before 1975 which makes use of a shoulder bar.
And Jeremy...I agree with you that Premier didn't originally intend to use the new Flight of Fear lap bars on the LIMcat coasters, to a point. And the point is this: I believe Premier may have originally planned to use some form of lap bar on the OL:FoF coasters. I submit the flimsiest possible evidence for this in the form of a rendering created for advertising purposes and used by Kings Island and Kings Dominion to promote the rides when they were under construction:
http://capital2.capital.edu/admin-staff/dalthoff/pic/OuterPicture.jpg
(picture stolen from Kings Island's web site more than a year ago)
Those renderings are usually surprisingly accurate with mechanical details; furthermore there was another image showing a view from the rear of the train taking off which also does not show any kind of shoulder bar. I don't know if this indicates prior intent or not, but it certainly suggests that the shoulder bars the ride ended up with were not part of the original design. I have no idea who 'chickened out'.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Anyway, when I walked past the B&M booth at IAAPA last fall (I don't remember if this is while I was with Jeff or not) I notied that they had two lead cars sitting there...one for Wildfire, one for an unnanounced coaster we now know as Nitro. One of the B&M people...I think he was a sales rep...was standing there and I made the off-hand comment that I wanted to see them put "that train" (pointing to the Nitro car) "on that coaster" (pointing at the Wildfire car). I don't think the guy realized I was serious.
The Speedcoaster train design is an interesting one in that the lap bar is very carefully designed so that when you combine the angle of the seat and the position and dimensions of the lap bar, a vertical exit is virtually impossible. The riders' feet do not touch the floor, a feature which makes an intentional escape extremely difficult if not impossible as there is no way to get enough leverage to lift out of the seat. The angle between the seat back and the seat bottom is acute, and to come out from behind the lap bar would require the rider to slide straight back in the seat, which can't happen because the seat back is in the way. The rider is contained because the body simply does not bend in the places where it would need to bend to allow an exit from the seat. And the rider can't come out the front of the seat because the seat has a molded 'horn' to keep him from sliding forward...and the bottom of the lap bar completes the loop around both legs. It isn't even necessary for the lap bar to be tight against the rider's torso because all it really needs to do is prevent the thighs from straightening out relative to the torso.
Premier, S&S, and Schwarzkopf accomplish the same thing by holding the feet back in the car, though I think they went overboard with Son of Beast. Instead of using a 'deep' lap bar, these guys use a more conventional lap bar with a crosspiece just below the knees. Again, the purpose is to keep the legs wrapped around the front of the seat to make sure that no matter what happens, the rider still has a lap to be secured by the bar.
Consider this: Roller coasters and other rides have been going upside-down since about 1902. The shoulder bar was invented in 1975. So far, I have not found any evidence of any ride constructed before 1975 which makes use of a shoulder bar.
And Jeremy...I agree with you that Premier didn't originally intend to use the new Flight of Fear lap bars on the LIMcat coasters, to a point. And the point is this: I believe Premier may have originally planned to use some form of lap bar on the OL:FoF coasters. I submit the flimsiest possible evidence for this in the form of a rendering created for advertising purposes and used by Kings Island and Kings Dominion to promote the rides when they were under construction:
http://capital2.capital.edu/admin-staff/dalthoff/pic/OuterPicture.jpg
(picture stolen from Kings Island's web site more than a year ago)
Those renderings are usually surprisingly accurate with mechanical details; furthermore there was another image showing a view from the rear of the train taking off which also does not show any kind of shoulder bar. I don't know if this indicates prior intent or not, but it certainly suggests that the shoulder bars the ride ended up with were not part of the original design. I have no idea who 'chickened out'.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Dave, that's a really cool pic. But I would make the arguement that it proves nothing. I would make the counter-arguement that the picture is a touched up version of a Schwarkopf looper, provided for demonstration purposes only. If that arguement wasn't persuasive, I would submit this piece of artwork ( http://www.canadas-wonderland.com/i/pcw_home.jpg ) as evidence that a manufactuer can use a lap bar in the promo piece without ever really considering it for actual use (we all know that Reptar has OTSR, and though I've yet to see pics of SS, it is supposedely a clone).
lata,
jeremy
--who hears that Joker's jinx is slated for a makeover...
lata,
jeremy
--who hears that Joker's jinx is slated for a makeover...
I said the argument was flimsy, didn't I? The Nickelodeon Central logo for Reptar was similar except that the lap bars shown were orange. Actually, I wonder if those graphics were based on an initial expectation that those would be Setpoint coasters as at Carowinds, or if the artist was told that the rides would look a bit like the Super Saturator.
I also seem to recall someone claiming that Premier had shown a car for a LIMcat coaster at IAAPA '95 with lap bars, but then, I didn't attend IAAPA that year.
--Dave Althoff, Jr., who notes that Google's archive doesn't seem to go back that far...
I also seem to recall someone claiming that Premier had shown a car for a LIMcat coaster at IAAPA '95 with lap bars, but then, I didn't attend IAAPA that year.
--Dave Althoff, Jr., who notes that Google's archive doesn't seem to go back that far...
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