B&M Inverted Layouts

Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:13 AM
Hi,

from my perception the layouts of inverted coasters seem to be most inventive, as compared to hyper coasters or floorless, or flying coasters.
I know there are all the Batman clones, but there seem to be tons of custom designed ones, like Montu, Alpengeist, Duelling Dragons, Raptor, Top Gun, etc.


Of course, there is the B&M typical double/interlocked corkscrew at the end, there
are cobra rolls and Immelmans... still, each of the ride has a (more or less?) unique sequence and layout.
I wonder if some of the rides are more similar to each other than others.
Does Batman compare to one of the Duelling Dragons?
How about Top Gun and Great Bear?

Is there some kind of genealogy to inverted coaster layouts?
*** This post was edited by superman 8/25/2003 10:37:57 AM ***

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:39 AM
It is indeed strange that the B&M inverters mostly feature different layouts and innovative elements. Take the wrap around inversion on Fire Dragon, the elevated helix on Great Bear, the through-the-loop-helix on japans Pyrenees (one of their best designs ever) and the first drop on Alpengeist.

Its even stranger that those ideas donĀ“t appear on more inverts or even their other coasters.

Talon seems to be B&Ms second Inverted design, which screams to be cloned. It is compact and looks like B&Ms take on the Vekoma SLCs (there are similarities).

Apart from the Batman rides, Orochi (Japan) is the only other cloned inverter design (Raptor), but apart from that they are all defferent.

Because these rides are very expensive, I guess a park is more likely to adjust an Inverter to the terrain to enhance the feeling of flying.

It would be nice if the creativity of the inverted designs would be found more on B&Ms other rides.

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Floorless in Gaza

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:05 AM

tricktrack said:

It would be nice if the creativity of the inverted designs would be found more on B&M's other rides.


Interesting quote. After I read that I imagined what if they used Alpengeist's or Raptor's layout for a floorless coaster or what if they took Mantis' layout and used it for an inverted. Turning Riddler's Revenge's layout into an inverted would be just sick. ;)

X Factor

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:06 AM
That's a really interesting idea, I would love to ride an Inverted version on Mantis, but I'm not sure if that would be feasible from a G Force perspective. The forces just may be too much, but I'm no expert in that field so I really have no clue.

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The Coaster Kid

Roller coasters are more than just rides, they're a reason for living

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:38 AM
Why not? The G's are more intense while standing up...some of the drops and such may need to be redesigned because the B&M inverted cars can't come so close so as to chop off your legs etc. etc... If a park says that they want an inverted version of Mantis,I'm sure B&M would give it to them. Is Pyrenees the black one that has a straight drop off the block brake?

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"No, it offends me as a comedian."

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 8:17 AM

Craig the Coaster Freak said:
Is Pyrenees the black one that has a straight drop off the block brake?

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Pyrenees is white. here is a link that shows just a few picture (including the helix-through-the loop). The first part is like Batman, just twice the size! After the Cobra Roll you wrap around the loop, into the blocks and then there is corkscrew, some curves and an airtime hill, which hops over the terrain. I am trying to find better picture (I know there are some on the net).

The park is said to have big financial trouble. This is said, because it is a spectacular beautiful park.

http://www.************.com/parkguides/parqueespana/pyrenees.shtml

Ooops, that site name seems to be a dirty word around here. add coaster Force as one word, if you want to see the pix.


Hmm, the black coaster with the straight drop could be KATUN in Italy.

http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery764.htm?Picture=6

This is very Raptoresque, but has as well a modified layout which is very stretched out and has a beautiful Mayan/Stargate Theming. It was once considered the roughest Inverter, but recently I have heard no more complaints about it.
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i was a teenage rollercoaster designer



*** This post was edited by tricktrack 8/24/2003 12:22:21 PM ***
*** This post was edited by tricktrack 8/24/2003 12:24:07 PM ***
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Sunday, August 24, 2003 8:25 AM
Rough? I've never heard anything but praise for Katun.

And you're right about the theme - it does look fantastic. The trains even look really nice on it, especially the wheel covers.

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 8:40 AM
^ Well, at least in its first season it felt like it had square wheels.

It was said to have something to do with the polyrethane chemistry/mixture (which is different for coasters at different locations). I havent ridden it since then, but as I said, I have heard no complaints recently as well.

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Floorless in Gaza

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 8:44 AM
That's good to hear. I heard nothing but praise from the ECC trip there, so was wondering whether it had become rough or was rough. It's another coaster I would like to ride.
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Sunday, August 24, 2003 5:53 PM

bassman2003 said:
I would love to ride an Inverted version of Mantis

Great. First it was floorless trains on Mantis, now we're trying to put inverted trains on it? ;)

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Whenever you can ride a roller coaster and experience 15 spots of intense airtime, you know you're on a good coaster. (see: Phoenix)

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:07 PM
Of course MarimbaGuy , Just Imagine The negative G's. :)

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#1 Jeff Hater. #1 Jeff's site lover.
Now funny unless told otherwise.

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 7:18 PM
How about an inverted version of FOF/Jokers Jinx? That would be awesome! A tightly packed invert!

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Is there life out there? Help us find out, http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

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Sunday, August 24, 2003 8:04 PM
Well, I always view Kumba in BGT as the layout prototype for Medusa. If I remember Kumba correctly(it's been 4 years), both start out with a loop, then a zero-g roll(Medusa has its dive loop before this) into the cobra roll. Plus, they both have interlocking corkscrews at the end.

The Inverteds follow this pattern(loop, immelmann/dive loop, zero-g roll, cobra roll/batwing, etc.) too. Alpengeist is the exception with the Immelmann before the loop.

The Incredible Hulk Coaster as an Inverted? That would be a great ride!!

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Major East Coast Parks I've yet to visit:
SFNE, Knoebels, KW, SFDL
Fav Coaster: MF, though I must check out S:RoS

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Monday, August 25, 2003 5:39 AM
Actually, your sequences are off. Kumba/Medusa is loop, dive loop, roll (0-g on Med. West, "kumbathingy" on Kumba and Med. East), cobra, block, interlocks.

Inverters are usually loop, 0-g, then its a crapshoot from there. After only riding the larger inverts for a long time (Raptor, Alpengeist, Montu), and recently getting to ride the compact versions (Talon, B:TR) I've decided that the invert is best when its small and compact, especially without a midcourse brake. The larger layouts can be fun, but I think are much better suited to floorless or stand-up coasters, and inverts are meant to be power-packed, compact, intense machines.

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Give me launched or give me ... uh ... more launched!!
--Brett

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Monday, August 25, 2003 7:25 AM
Yeah, I knew I missed something; it's been a while since I rode Kumba. What's the "kumbathingy"? :)

I agree that the mid-course brakes do take a little from those rides. I always complain everytime I go past one, be it an Inverted or any other type. I want continuous speed on my coasters. Talon is a very underrated coaster and Batman wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't cloned the heck out of...

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Major East Coast Parks I've yet to visit:
SFNE, Knoebels, KW, SFDL
Fav Coaster: MF, though I must check out S:RoS

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Monday, August 25, 2003 7:36 AM

ThunderStorm said:
Yeah, I knew I missed something; it's been a while since I rode Kumba. What's the "kumbathingy"? :)

I agree that the mid-course brakes do take a little from those rides. I always complain everytime I go past one, be it an Inverted or any other type. I want continuous speed on my coasters. Talon is a very underrated coaster and Batman wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't cloned the heck out of...

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Major East Coast Parks I've yet to visit:
SFNE, Knoebels, KW, SFDL
Fav Coaster: MF, though I must check out S:RoS


b&m usually does a nice job with the mid course brakes not needing to slow the trains down too much. the thing that bothers me most about them on some of them is the climb to them. batman at sfwoa and alpengeist both have really boreing climbs to the midcourse. while say raptor has a more intense trip up there. its almost part of the ride.

/ --------------------------------------
http://www.eightdotthree.net

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Monday, August 25, 2003 7:57 AM
If you haven't ridden Kumba or Medusa East in a while, its hard to describe the kumbathingy. It's a zero-G roll for all intents and purposes, but I've found (and whoever it was that coined "kumbathingy" ... 2Hostyl maybe?) that there is just a different feeling to some of them. If you look closly, most zero-Gs, especially on inverts like B:TR ascend to the inversion, perform it, then fall from it.

On Kumba, there is no flat part to the roll's "hill", it peaks mid-roll, and gives a much more weightlessness feeling and an incredible whipping/airtime sensation on the exit. This is all my experience of course, and since Kumba isn't well recieved anymore, many will disagree ...

And while we're talkin mid-courses here, what the heck is with midcourse brakes on a speed (i.e. hyper or giga or twister) coaster? I just recently experienced Nitro and Steel Force, and both were amazing rides, but the midcourse put a hiccup in two otherwise near-perfect rides!

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Give me launched or give me ... uh ... more launched!!
--Brett
*** This post was edited by Impulse-ive 8/25/2003 11:59:54 AM ***

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Monday, August 25, 2003 8:59 AM

eightdotthree said:


the thing that bothers me most about them on some of them is the climb to them. batman at sfwoa and alpengeist both have really boreing climbs to the midcourse. while say raptor has a more intense trip up there. its almost part of the ride.


I agree I've always thought that Alpengeist's climb to the midcourse was boring and painfully long, but then again your dealing with a 195' invert.

The midcouse on Steel Force varies from day to day depending on how crowded the park is and what the weather is like.I have found that generally heavier crowds mean heavier brakes. I've had rides where the brakes barely touched the train and I've had rides where the train almost completely haults to a stop on the brakes(my last trip there 2 weekends ago). I think Morgans hypers could have been designed differently so these MCBR's wouldn't be needed. I've seen DP use the midcourse to hold trains once in a while, but I can't really think of any other uses for them.

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"You know its a good ride when you come into the final brake run wiping tears from your eyes."
*** This post was edited by DorneyDante 8/25/2003 1:00:45 PM ***

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Monday, August 25, 2003 9:23 AM
I'm fairly certain that it was some other genius that came up with 'kumbathingy' but I most definitely use it often. I dont like the term "Zero-G Roll" as some use that term for the twisting elements found on the inverts and the seated coasters. However, *I* feel that the sensation on the Kumba element is vastly different from that of the B:TR element. But what ever....;)

Anyway, I dont have too much of a problem with the midcourses on say NITRO or Steel Eel. I dont really consider a coaster with a ton of large hills to be a "speed" coaster. Only coasters with a lot of low level sections (e.g. Millie) really need the "speed" aspect to be good.

lata, jeremy

--who thinks Phantom's Revenge 0wnz! all the above named coasters

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Monday, August 25, 2003 10:34 AM
I've found that Talon's zero-g is the only invert that produces a good amount of weightlessness, but didn't find too much of a difference between Kumba, Medusa E./W., or Kraken. Hulk's in kind of hard to compare becuase of the acceleration into it.

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Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
"It's not a Toomer" - Arnold Schwartzenkoph
"Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know." -Jeff

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