B&M coasters getting boring.
Parks need balance. Cedar Point has done a great job with this. Obviously, Raptor, Wicked Twister, Mantis (yes, even with the trim) and TTD are all very intense experiences. MF and Magnum are also very intense experiences but in completely different ways. Riding up that lift on MF at dusk at gazing out at the park below and then getting flung off that first drop like a base jumper throws himself off a cliff is pretty powerful. But not in a way that pretty much the whole family can't ride.
As much as I piss and moan about SFGAdv, when the whole park is running properly I think they'll have part of this nailed as well. Chiller, Batman, KK, and Gasm and many of the flat rides are of the uber-intense variety. The three newer B&M's in the park aren't of that same agression, but I still like all three very much. I was actually very impressed with Superman having only Batwing as my previous flyer experience, Medusa is ok, and I seem to enjoy Nitro a lot more than a lot of people here. But once again..these are things that are going to be reridable for a lot of people. They have the potential for lot of that "We HAVE to ride that again next year!" factor that parks should be looking for.
On another note, there's 2 soon to be 3 coasters in Southern Indiana that are as crazy and intense as any coaster I've ever been on, and they seem to appeal to just about every demographic you can think of that would like thrill rides.
Guess that just shows you what a couple of well designed, well maintained woodies can do for a park.
I haven't been on but three B&M's and I like them all; Mantis, Dominator, Raptor.
BTW If want to see what Premier launches should be ride the Chiller at SFGAdv. You got sporty cars make them take off like they are sports cars ;)
Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."
Okay, so it's definite IJ is going to PKD. Rumored to be going to PC.
Of course, option C is still out there, that there's going to be *four* IJ coasters next year...
The one thing B&M could do to make (at least the sit-down) rides more intense? Move the seats closer to the track, to increase the FEELING of speed...as opposed to sitting up higher than an 18-wheeler...
The inverts are FINE as is, IMO...and the stand-ups, well, they're yesterdays news anyway... ;)
However, I can honestly say I haven't found a B&M yet that I truly, madly, deeply, passionately LOVED and wanted to do long marathons on.
Hopefully that will change when I get to experience their hypers. I have ridden B&M floorless, standup, flyer, and invert, and generally prefer them in that order.
To explain...
I'm a lap bar, airtime, drop addict.
I don't care for inversions OR OTSRs, especially when inversions completely DOMINATE a ride (ala BTR)
My feelings about positive g's range from mild dislike to absolute DESPISE, depending on my mood.
This eliminates a ride like BTR from ever coming close to my favorites list.
My lowest rated woodie BLOWS IT AWAY in my rankings.
It's not "wooden snobbery", multiloopers just aren't my favorite cup of tea.
I do like Schwarzkopfs a lot, especially rides like SFOT Shockwave and SFOG Mindbender.
Inversions? Yes. But there are no horsecollars and the inversions don't even come close to dominating the ride.
Shockwave, in fact, turns into an exquisite feast of airtime heaven!
This is why Shockwave, Mindbender, and the hypers I've ridden are the ONLY steel coasters I've ever ridden that defeat my lowest rated woodie in a head to head evaluation.
Ironically, I prefer the so-called "forceless" B&M's I've ridden (such as S:KC) by a MILE over B:TR.
Since I'm not greying out, I can enjoy the speed, drops, and moments of hangtime. Plus, the ride has many elements that actually aren't inversions, unlike B:TR.
If there is one type of pacing I get VERY bored with, it's when a coaster basically has a first drop followed by NOTHING but a tedious string of inversions - a "connect the inversions" coaster. This is true if it's a B&M, Arrow, Vekoma, etc.
I did respond favorably to Georgia Scorcher because the inversions don't dominate the ride and there is lots of fun swooping drops and turns.
The flyer was interesting (S:UF), the inversions don't dominate the ride, but the high g's in the pretzel loop make it unmarathonable for me (I rate coasters primarily by which one I would prefer to marathon on)
And the thing about B&M's I've ridden is, they tend to make pretty good to great first impressions on me, but with each passing back to back ride, I tend to lose interest.
Whereas some of my favorite coasters (which are mainly woodies) did NOT blow me away on the first ride, but I loved them MORE and MORE with each passing lap.
I do think B&M are very good at what they do, and clearly tend to make better OTSR multiloopers than Arrow and Vekoma. (Although I do agree with the above poster who stated a preference for the Vekoma SLC over the BTR. I prefer the layout and pacing of the SLC, I find the drop more thrilling, I like the moment of airtime on the camelback near the station - which would have been a zero-g roll on a B&M. And, I've never greyed out on an SLC)
If I was more into multiloopers, I'm sure some Beemers would be in my steel top 10. Hopefully one of their hypers will get there. My first B&M hyper will either be SFOG's Goliath in 2006 or SFGAm Raging Bull.
I do think it is clever of them to offer so many different (some would say gimmick) riding position styles in their catalog. This has led to many parks ordering several of their OTSR multloopers, due to different riding positions.
Frontrider *** Edited 9/9/2005 5:33:39 PM UTC by Frontrider***
It's weird... when Vekoma debuted their Flying Dutchman coasters, people complained that there were too many inversions and not enough "flying" time (remember when enthusiasts went nuts because the "improved" SFO and SFA versions were going to include an extra helix?). Now that B&M has built flying coasters that focus on low-level swoops and turns, people say that they lack intensity. I find the Superman rides to be a lot of fun because they give you a lot of "flight" time instead of subjecting the rider to an endless barrage of painful inversions.
Unfortuantely B&M and other roller coaster firms/engineers can't build what they exactly want. Being a mechanical engineer, and my overall bias towards their expertise, I feel that they would be better off deciding the layout for the ride. Don't get me wrong, I do respect the jobs any upper management does for the park.
But when it comes down do it, they really have no clue on any of the technical details of a ride, and what can and can not be done. Take Incredible Hulk for example. Island of Adventure clearly wanted a launch for that ride. Unfortuantely B&M relunctantly had to go with it, and what in turn is a subpar ride for their standards. If you ever read any quotes they have of that ride, it is usually of disappointment with the ride, and the concept of launch coasters.
Really if some of the upper management type people would give the ball to the engineering firms to come up with creative and innovative rides, and just give them a little direction, you would likely have more quality rides.
However the parks are the customer, so they should be able to choose what they want, and how much input they want to give for a new ride. It is not really going to change, but alot of times it seems the people making the decisions don't necessarly consider capacity, technical limitations of the ride type, or pacing.
They seem to care more about marketing and what will intially bring guest in. Which is ok, but what happens when the novelty wears off? Well by that time whoever made that decisions, will likely have a different position in the park chain, managing another park or promoted. So he will have benefited from the intial spike in attendance due to marketing, but will leave others to maintain and keep up a ride with marginal popularity and capacity and high maintenance, that is less valuable to the park each year.
What they don't consider, is the overal long term impact of there decision. Beast and Son of Beast are two perfect examples. With Beast, KI construction and engineering was given the ball, to basically design the biggest, longest, and best ride, as they see fit. I can remember listening to an interview by Charles Dinn, and he commented that the general manager of KI at the time kept saying that each part of the layout looked good but it appeared he had no idea of what he was looking at. So basically they kept on showing him new top views of sectons of the layout, and he kept saying that looks good, and eventually that is how the ride got to become the longest wooden roller coaster.
It is considered a legendary ride, that has been ranked in top 10 list for many years, and has brought in guest to the park for over 25 years. However Son of Beast, has had marginal popularity. It is rather obvious that the park wanted the ride to be that big, have two helixes, and a loop, regardless of whether any of the ideas were really that technically sound.
So what you have now is a ride that only has significant waits on crowded days, and overall is one of the most expensive additions to build and the most to maintain. Even last Labor day, Son of Beast wait was the same as top gun, which is probably in the middle when it comes to coaster popularity at the park. However top gun was a capital cost of less than 5 millon, son of beast cost around 15 to 20 million. And this does not factor in maintenance cost.
So if parks just let the engineers have more freedom to design the layouts, I feel you will see much more unique and better rides.
Beast Fan said:
Jeff:Unfortuantely B&M and other roller coaster firms/engineers can't build what they exactly want.
I don't want to speak for Jeff here, but I believe he already realized that. *** Edited 9/9/2005 10:29:54 PM UTC by matt.***
Beast Fan said:
Take Incredible Hulk for example. Island of Adventure clearly wanted a launch for that ride. Unfortuantely B&M relunctantly had to go with it, and what in turn is a subpar ride for their standards. If you ever read any quotes they have of that ride, it is usually of disappointment with the ride, and the concept of launch coasters.
What?
Incredible hulk was #1 for a couple years there bud. There are many people (myself included) who think this ride was top notch. Furthermore, Universal wanted a launch system, B&M said go build it yourself, and so they did. Theme park companies like Six Flags and Universal have their own engineers on staff. They are not entirely clueless as you make them out to be.
Fate is the path of least resistance.
And besides, I love how everyone is always "B&M doesn't do this or doesn't do that..."
They didn't seem to feel comfortable working on a launch mech. because they hadn't before. So they told Universal to get someone else to do it. If they didn't want one of their coasters to be launched, they wouldn't have sold HULK in the first place. They simply asked that Universal take care of the launch since they didn't feel they were able.
And then I hear "Well, they won't build over this or that height". Actually, isn't it stated in many places that they were contacted to to Millie? I've heard 'They turned that down' by people that don't know, but from people that I trust more, they said that B&M would do it, but they were gonna charge a huge amount to do it.
Parks go to the company and tell them what they want. Companies build what parks want. If they don't, the don't go all "Well, we're not building that because we don't want to, that isn't 'us'". If they can't do it themselves, they tell the park and discuss other options, such as the park doing it themselves. Just like what appears to have happened with Hulk.
I'll believe that B&M doesn't or won't do specific things simply because they 'just don't do that' when I hear that come out of the mouth of Walter or Claude. *** Edited 9/10/2005 3:04:54 AM UTC by TeknoScorpion***
I can dream can't I... seriously if anyone was goning to take on some other 4-D coaster B&M is the company I would like to see do it...
I could say B&M coasters are getting old, but they always seem to be open and moving crowds of people at a quick pace (besides standups) and they deliver smooth inversions and elments that other coaster manufactures simply aren't doing.
Here is the passage from article:
Q: Some coaster designers are using linear induction motors and accelerators to make them shoot off to a start or pick up speed. You have stayed away from the concept except for the Hulk at Universal Orlando, which is frequently rated as the best steel coaster in the world. What happened?
A: We perfer to stick to what we know best, which is gravity. Universal wanted the launch accelerator, so after a lot of discusssion, another firm installed the accelerator.
Well it seems that they will not be builiding any launch coasters in the near future, unless another manufacture provides the mechanism. I seem to disagree with the interviewer, and want to know what list is Hulk rated so high in? It was rated 19 best steel in 2005 golden tickets, whichi is really good but not close to number 1. Also consider that it was 9th highest B&M ride on the list, and not even the best steel ride at its own park.
I just thought there was a quote from Walter or Claude, that mentioned that they didn't like that ride or were not completely happy with it. If I find one, I will post it.
Frontrider said:
I've never ridden a coaster I didn't like, so in that sense, the same is true for B&M's.
LOL! Well I can't say that. I will try ANY coaster once at least. But there are a few that I will only ride if I am with a newbie (if they buy me lunch..lol) and there are some I will never ride again under any circumstances. ;-)
-Tina
rollergator said:
The "rumors" of IJ going to PCar are mostly based on an offhand comment from a PCW employee...we DID question him further when he mentioned THREE of them, and he said "here, PKI, and Charlotte". Well, now that we KNOW that PKD is getting one of them, I'm *tempted* to think that MAYBE: a) he mistook what park was getting the third one, or, more likely IMO, b) Paramount changed their minds and decided on VA instead of Carolina.
Actually, Bill, I think he said "here, PKI, and.....North Carolina?"
He could of easily confused Carowinds with King's Dominion.
At this point I think ALL Paramount parks (maybe even NorCal) will eventually get an Italian Job coaster. The next version may or may not be identical to the previous two. But that's just my hunch.
-Tina
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