# Arrow roughness mystery solved!

Sunday, April 22, 2001 9:13 AM

SROS221 said:
"I see the word Transition a lot in this topic. What is a transition????? Someone please enlighten me.
I'm not sure if anyonbe answered your question, but a transition is the change from one element to another. e.g. From straight track to a loop or vice versa...

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Decisions determine destiny; Destiny determines decisions.
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Tuesday, August 13, 2002 7:49 PM

Bump.

I've been thinking about this lately, how on some coasters, the guide and upstop wheels don't touch the track. Well, I got an idea. What would be wrong with making the wheels just a very small bit bigger? That way, they would touch the rails and the train wouldn't jostle as much. If O is the rail and - is the guide wheel, here is my illustration.

- O : Smaller wheel, doesn't come close to rail.

--O : Bigger wheel, touches rail. Train doesn't jostle.

Now, there would still be some headbanging in places with bad transitions, like Shockwave's Midcourse turn and Vortex's turn into the loops, but it wouldn't be as bad. Also, other places with roughness would be eliminated because the trains would be connected to the track.

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The Whizzer is saved!!:)

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Tuesday, August 13, 2002 7:57 PM
"Why?" is my question. If the problem is the side wheels are not in constant contact with the track at all times, why hasn't it been fixed? Why do Vekoma and Arrow continue to make coasters this way if it makes them rough?
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Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:06 PM

Arrow transitions remind me of desiging a coaster in RCT. It seems they have to straighten the track out before going into the next turn or element.

Anyway, I like arrows. But I guess I'm "tough" when it comes to rough rides (SOB being the only exception).

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Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:10 PM
I never really thought of this as the problem with Arrow and roughness, but now that it is mentioned, it makes perfect sense. On Top Gun at PKI you can actually watch the side wheels continue to spin after the train has come to a stop in the brake run.
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Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:25 PM

I believe that Intamin's woodies make a 3 point contact on their rails, but I'm not 100% certain.

Batman: The Ride turns 10 years old at SFGAm this year.

And yes, my brother and I were claimed victims of that nasty flat on Vortex, as well as many others. The worst time was the first ride on it though.

It is easy to tell whether or not you have a bad road wheel on rides...especially on Magnum when wheels get worn out daily. It's not like you need a degree in engineering to understand the basics of a coaster...

silly me forgot to look at the dates of the first posts...sorry[/edit]

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Korn Tour (With no name)--Korn, Puddle of Mudd, Deadsy

*** This post was edited by CPgenius on 8/14/2002. ***

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Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:46 PM
I find that following all the directions that you're given in the station on an Arrow ride help make it feel a LOT better. Sit how you're supposed to, don't hunch over. Don't try to put your hands up, you'll probably just get one stuck between the restraint and the side on Arrow loopers anyway :). And, most importantly, put your restraint ALL the way down, i know most people realize tight lapbars ruin most rides, but on Arrow loopers it really helps!
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Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:53 PM

rentzy387 said:
"Why?" is my question. If the problem is the side wheels are not in constant contact with the track at all times, why hasn't it been fixed? Why do Vekoma and Arrow continue to make coasters this way if it makes them rough?

Since, when travelling along curves, the outside of a rail has a larger surface area than the inside, making the wheels too tight wouldn't allow the train to perform any manuever. Your idea would work on an S&S snow shot (straight track, no turns, hills, banking) but thats about it :)

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Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:26 AM
I would just really like to echo the sentiments from Jeff and V2. In my experimence B&M coasters age very well. Nemesis is about 6 years old now and still rides very smoothly. Oblivion is probably the smootest ride I've even been on, even those who don't ride it comment on how smooth and graceful it looks as it negotiates the track....not bad considering it was the worlds first vertical drop coaster eh! I think smooth coasters are the result of good design, good engineering and TLC from the maintenance crews.
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Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:50 AM

One problem I see with retrofitting the guide wheels on old arrows and vekoms is that those coasters were designed to go through the course at a certain speed. Having the guide wheels touching throughout the whole course is going to slow the train down somewhat (I know the springloaded wheels on B&M's slow them down a bit). Basically for friction means more resistance and thus less speed. It might not make a huge difference in terms of mph, but alot of coasters are marginal as they are, and slowign them down more could cause rollbacks etc.

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Wednesday, August 14, 2002 6:17 AM

CPgenius said:

I believe that Intamin's woodies make a 3 point contact on their rails, but I'm not 100% certain.

Only the new one, Colossus. It has essentially the same trains as their steel hypers. The same Intamin train is on the new RCCA woodie at WBMW Madrid. It makes solid contact too.

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- Peabody

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Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:49 AM

All an Arrow transition needs is one of those wha chit! whip sound effects that you always hear in cartoons.

*Frusteratedly searches for a pic*

On the right side, after the second fan turn, see the "flat/unbanking" drop? That's just one bad transition!

And, with the less speed thing, that should not be a prob on Vekoma SLC's, those things absolutly TEAR through their courses.

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AHHH-SCHWARZKOPF!
-Coaster Enthusuiast Sneezing

*** This post was edited by S00perGIR on 8/14/2002. ***

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Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:48 PM
Ride Man, didn't you mention once that Tennessee Tornado uses spring loaded wheels? What with the better transitions and having the wheels touch the track all the time, that would account for the smooth ride that TT apparently gives.

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Intelligence is a God given gift: Know how to use it.

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Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:56 PM
Tennessee Tornado does NOT use spring-loaded wheels. The secret to that ride's success is all in the track bending.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:52 PM
I've also noticed on Titan (most likely the same on Goliath) that only the top and guide wheels are spring loaded, upstops are normal. Then again, it's probably not needed.

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.:| Brandon Rodriguez |:.
http://www.coasters2k.com

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Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:18 AM

That picture reminds me of the transitioning at the bottom of Dreamworld's Thunderbolt. Only difference is, I assure you, this one is 1000x rougher and more unpleasant.

Spring Loaded wheels wouldn't solve much at all. Of the two Arrows that are in this country (both are nice and smooth), I can say that I never feel any jolts from the change of wheels (ie, from right guide wheels to left wheels). All really, that Spring Loaded wheels would do, is remove this jolt. If there's a badly banked turn, or a funny shaped bunny hill, there isn't much they'd do, unless you feel any sudden jolts, in which case, spring loaded wheels would remove the jolt, but if there is this jolt, the ride, or this segment of it, would have been so badly engineered, that it'd be painful no matter what you did.

Just wondering, did Drachen Fire (or Canyon Blaster) have the soft Arrow restraints. Cyclone at Dreamworld here has the same trains as these two, and the restraints are the softest we've got - better than our Intamin OTSR, Intamin lapbars, or Mack lapbars (ouch), just to name a few. They are the sorts of things that if you headbutt them as hard as you can, it doesn't hurt. The have slightly harder bottoms (still soft though), and get softer as you go up, and are quite cushy at the neck/ear region. If this ride did have any headbanging, I doubt it'd be painful thanks to these.

This is something I guess I made up, but it always seemed to me, as if many Arrow loopers look "harder", as in their track is harder, and they simply look as though they were made by bending steel wire into the desired shapes, but the wire didn't like the shape, and tried to go as 'back-to-normal' as possible, but the supports stopped it. I guess I think of it as though the track wasn't designed to go in the shape it is, and is basically uncomfortable. (Strangely, to me, Vekoma coasters look more "naturally" flowing, but yet somehow are rougher - I guess disproving my ridiculous hypothesis :)).

I say, if you want to fix the 'roughness' problems, your best bet is removing and replacing the problem spots of track. I'm sure some nice lapbars and better padded trains however would do the job quite nicely, and I'm sure they'd be greeted with applaud among the enthusiasts, especially after seeing how well Premier's did.

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So what if the best coaster in Australia is a second hand Arrow?

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Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:16 AM
I know SFWoA's Serial Thriller is quite a nice ride with those cushy restraint pads.

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AHHH-SCHWARZKOPF!
-Coaster Enthusuiast Sneezing

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Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:49 AM
SooperGIR, that's highly debatable! :) I'm not sure the majority would agree with you.

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- Peabody

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Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:15 PM
With the iron dragon i have the outside wheels moving very little, especially in the station. I also noticed that certain wheels didn't move at all.
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