Arrow roughness mystery solved!

Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:14 PM
B&M rides don't get "loose." They sure do fall victim to poor maintenance though. Late last summer I rode Batman at Six Flags Geauga Lake and got several rides over bad road or guide wheels. Feeling the bumps on the standby area means you've got some ugly road wheels. Feeling the thing bounce in the turns means you have bad guide wheels.

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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:28 PM
So Jeff, when did you get your degree in engineering???
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:38 PM
Ummm... it's common sense, dude. That and I've been on older B&M's (that are well taken care of) and found them to be just as smooth as a new ride.

A ten-year old B&M will never feel like a ten-year old Arrow.

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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:46 PM
Has anybody ever watched the Vortex at PKI making the turn into the loops? When thew train *unbanks* it just rams into that, straight descending position into the loops. You can actually hear the screams of the riders going "OWWW!"
Also, when I read an article about Drachen Fire, it said that one of the rides biggest problems with the drop from the block brake into the corkscrew was a POORLY ENGINERED transition. Transitions are most certainly one of the biggest problems with Arrows.
I still love Arrow though!

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Coasters- a little slice of heaven
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:01 PM
Ha! It's funny that you should mention that because we were just talking about that at the park last weekend! Sure enough, we rode it, and had the same screams.

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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:08 PM
First, thanks for stealing part of my signature Jephry. So, You are the Weakest Link! Goodbye!!! ;)

Second, I've never had a problem with any of Arrow's coasters, especially not TennTornado(of course). The only time Vortex is a little rough is after the first drop when it slows on the rise hill and the brakes turn into the corkscrews. AdvEx and Corkscrew were kind of rough but not too bad. It does have a lot to do with the bad transitions and laterals.

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PKI-Wooden and Kiddie Coaster Capital of the World!
The First and Only Gigabuzzer bigger than Millie, rising Faster than Maggie, and pulls more BS than MS ever will!!!
You are the Weakest Link! Goodbye!!! *** This post was edited by Koaster King on 4/19/2001. ***
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:44 PM
Hmmmmm....Jeff There are only 2 B&M's that are ten years old. So how can you base your opinion of that????
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 11:33 PM
Just for the record Viper has always been smooth. It's not B&M, the touch of God smooth, but it's still smooth.
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"You are the weakest link, Goodbye"
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Friday, April 20, 2001 7:49 AM

Craig the Coaster Freak said:
When thew train *unbanks* it just rams into that, straight descending position into the loops. You can actually hear the screams of the riders going "OWWW!"
I noticed the same thing on the Loch Ness Monster on the first turnaround. Blam!!! The thing actually unbanks. This was a few years back though. Have they fixed that? Anyone?

*** This post was edited by janfrederick on 4/20/2001. ***
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Friday, April 20, 2001 9:05 AM
What two B&M's are ten years old? I know Iron Wolf is, but what's the second?

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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
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Friday, April 20, 2001 9:23 AM
I believe the PGA Vortex is at least 10 years old.
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Friday, April 20, 2001 11:16 AM
I see the word Transition a lot in this topic. What is a transition????? Someone please enlighten me.

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SROS at SFNE, the #1 steelie
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Friday, April 20, 2001 11:27 AM
The entry and exit from track elements, curves, etc. Arrow had a tendancy to build coasters that have really quick transitions, like the snaps after the 2nd turn on PKI's Vortex or after the big turn on Steel Phantom. On the other hand, B&M and Intamin use smoother natural transitions between elements.


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Scott W. Short
scott@midwestcoastercentral.com
http://www.midwestcoastercentral.com
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Friday, April 20, 2001 11:50 AM
Thanks!

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SROS at SFNE, the #1 steelie
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Friday, April 20, 2001 4:51 PM

Jeff said:
"Ummm... it's common sense, dude. That and I've been on older B&M's (that are well taken care of) and found them to be just as smooth as a new ride.

A ten-year old B&M will never feel like a ten-year old Arrow.

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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com"


that is sooo true i was at PGA on monday (4/16) and i rode vortex a B&M stand up (second B&M anywhere built in 1991) and it was smooth except for maybe one or two places. then i rode demon. i'll admit demon wasnt too rough for a 20 year old coaster but if vortex was 20 years old it probably would be smoother at the rate it's aging.
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are you ready to go vertical... v2... SFMW... 2001
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 12:12 AM
You guys want to talk about bad transitions? (Think Togo)
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 12:38 AM
Arrow's roughness is based on their computer programs that lay out exact bank degrees in a linear foot by foot format. The new rides use a different banking program then the ones used to build all the early Arrow Loopers. I think that you will find any coaster coming from them in the future to be of considerably higher quality than their predecessors.
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 2:00 AM
You also have to remember it was also do to the way the old Arrow Dynamics used to bend the track.

Which big turn on Steel Phantom?

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"You are the weakest link, Goodbye"
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 6:58 AM
B&M and Giovanola (and maybe recent intaminsalthough I have not rode one) Use spring loaded wheels to absorb shock and to be in contact with the tracks at all times along with outside wheels instead of inside wheels.

To prove this the only Arrow Suspended I have done is Vampire at Chessington and how Arrow track with outside rails and it smoother than Space Mountain in Paris Vekoma with inside wheels.

Then compare Shockwave (Intamin and Giovanola) and Nemesis (B&M) same track because Giovanola designed B&M track but the vibrations come on Shockwave because it does not have the spring loaded wheels.

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JawCoasters - Site for UK Coasters
www.wilkes2536.freeserve.co.uk
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 9:06 AM
Ah, I knew this would happen, that someone would bring up the inside vs. outside argument again. And let me tell you once again that the argument is, for lack of a better word, crap. The Vekoma-built Serial Thriller at Geauga Lake is a much smoother ride (or at least it was when I last rode it) than the Arrow-built Iron Dragon at Cedar Point. Serial Thriller has inside guide wheels while Iron Dragon has 'em on the outside. Putting the guide wheels on the inside or outside should make absolutely no difference because the action of the wheel assemblies is identical either way; merely reversed.

Oh, and lest you think that either guide wheel position or guide wheel preloading is the 'magic bullet' answer, I should point out that the Premier launched coasters (Flight of Fear and related) all have spring-loaded outside guide wheels. :)
And Togo puts their guide wheels outboard of the rail.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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