Are we putting ourselves at odds with the parks?

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Screamscape has just released some photos, that if real, PKI certainly wouldn't want us to be seeing right now.

Jeff has flat out said that the new CP ride will be an impulse.

Obviously, with any ride, there are people in the know, and there are people that aren't, but parks work pretty hard to keep these things secretive, but we enthusiasts are just getting more clever, i suppose.

My question:

Will the parks eventually get pissed? Are we making things harder for the parks, unneccesairily? I want to know just as much as the next guy what my homepark is building next year, but are we, as a community, being hypocritcal by doing our best to uncover what they are building next, and then asking for special priveledges from the parks?

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Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

I think that for the most park, only us enthusiasts will even go on the internet for the sole purpose of finding out information about coasters. Most people (non enthusiast coastering once a year people) won't really care until they ride it. Plus most will screw up the info anyway so it's no big deal. I also think that most parks expect us to find info (enthusiasts fly planes over parks with telescopes trying to get a view) and it overall spreads the hype and sometimes gives them more business. I know that if I didn't hear the rumor that Conneaut would be closing for good then I probably wouldn't have gone. Now I'm a visitor for life. Plus even SFNE has their plans tacked to the side of a trailer in the parking lot!
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My fellow Americans, let's roll!
I pray that I will never see a Six Flags Conneaut Lake

*** This post was edited by bigkirby on 11/11/2001. ***

Interesting question.

I put myself in the park's shoes. If I wanted something kept secret, then I would be disspointed if someone not involved with the project spilled the beans. But, I would also look at all sides of the situation.

Enthusiasts, quite honestly are not one of their main priorities. Measure the amount of general public that make up the 3.5M attendance at PKI and CP each season. A very SMALL portion of those people claim to be enthusiasts. The park's are focusing their attention on drawing Mr and Ms John Q Public and their 2.3 kids to the park to spend money. Not whether or not enthusiasts are pleased with their ride decisions.

But a park such as PKI eats up the attention they get, no matter good or bad. I truly believe that there is no such thing as bad press. The more we talk, the more their name gets out there.

So are they bothered by it? Probably annoyed at times. Do they wish it would go away? Probably at times. But I can name one particular park that told me they welcome any websites that discuss or pay tribute to them. They like the free publicity.

I personally am totally against Screamscape's poor decision and judgement with the Tomb Raider leak. They published something that they do not hold the rights to. But by doing so, they only alienate and hurt their chances at information in the future. If I were PKI, I would keep a $&^* list of those that ruined the suprise, such as Screamscape, and drop their name from any future releases and invites.

However, in the big scheme of things, it just isn't that important to the parks. Screamscape and/or rumors are not even a spec on the list of a parks' priorities.

Shaggy

I am sure most parks couldn't care less, if some enthusiasts found out about their new ride. More often than not, by enthusiasts finding out, they give the park some free publicity and help to build up awareness about the new ride. Even if the company did not want to disclose the info about the new attraction, the amount of enthusiasts that will actually see the info is so miniscule compared to the GP that will be completely oblivious. I do not think the enthusiasts need to worry about being alienated or upsetting the parks just because we found out about the new ride. Companies and parks have probably alot more to worry about than disclosing info from us.

Personally, I thought was Screamscape posted was wrong. I had similar prints for another attraction two years ago and I kept them to myself. It wasn't intended for the public. Regarding Cedar Point, give me a break, as soon as you saw those footers it was obvious. If something can be seen by anyone and draw conclusions from that, that's entirely different.

I do think there's such a thing as bad press. PKI's SOB fiasco hurt them, and hurt their attendance.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

Yeah, i really shouldn't have used your example with CP, jeff, because it really is pretty obvious. and what the hell do i know? maybe cp told you to leak it or something.

I just think the whole screamscape thing is pretty lame.

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Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

Thats funny, as soon as I saw the footers for TR:TR I thought it was obvious as to what it was too.

ScreamScape has said that TR:TR would be a Giant Top Spin for months now, posting small pictures of project plans now makes little difference. Well, except for those people who thought they could wish TR:TR into something other than what it is.

Jeff, you have a close relationship with CP, when you say modified impulse no one with a clue has any reason to doubt you. What would be different if you posted the project plans for the new CP attraction? Of course, you've made it very clean that you wouldn't do this to presevre your relationship, instead encrypting it so you can gloat after the fact. Regardless, images make very little difference in both situations when the cat is already out of the bag.

In either case the parks probably don't want the plans published, but if it was really that important to them they would make sure they don't fall into the hands of webmasters.

*** This post was edited by The Anti-Rumor on 11/11/2001. ***

Like I said in today's TR:TR forum, I don't think Lance Hart owes anyone any apologies. The site is run to disclose private information. The only people that should feel any remorse are the people who leaked the information. Where is the outcry when a car magazine publishes spy photos of upcoming cars? There is none. People have an insatiable need to gather information about their future.
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SFA 2002-What are they building?

Here's what I don't get. If the webmaster of Screamscape said he saw the plans, but he can't show them, everyone would complain that the webmaster is cruel and likes to play mind games. Instead, he put the pictures on his site and now everyone says that it was wrong to do that. I don't really know where I stand on this, but I think it is dumb that the same people who would complain that the information wasn't leaked are complaining that it was. Don't get mad at me everyone that said it was wrong, it isn't everyone that does that, just some people. Just my $.02.
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"It smells like something's burning," says my mom while looking at the fire in the fireplace.

Anti-Rumor:

Footers? As far as I saw, steel reinforcements were laid in the ground, and then the building's concrete floor was poured over that. There are no individual footers.

It makes a huge difference. Speculation and rumors is fine, but posting any type of plan (real, or not real) is an infringement on PKI's copyright. PKI owns those plans and did not want people to see them. So IMO Screamscape should have honored that, no matter how they obtained them.

I cannot speak for Jeff. But I am betting that he would only do so if he obtained permission. Why would he jepordize his website, credibility and his relationship with CP by revealing plans that they did not want published? Now if they sent plans to him and said, feel free to put these on your site, then that would be a different story.

But PKI obviously did not do that with Screamscape. It is obvious because of the way that the webmaster has written the blurb about the plans. He blatantly says that he is posting these pictures that he has been "sitting on" because people don't believe his referring to it as a flat ride. He did it as a "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" knee jerk reaction to compensate for his past lack of credibility on the subject. Nowhere does he say anything about obtaining them and posting them by permission.

PKI wrote a confidentiality clause into their contract with the manufacturer to remain silent about the attraction. We were told that at the media announce. Yes, I was there. I sure don't recall seeing anyone from Screamscape there. Hmmmm. Somehow people will always find a means to obtain info they really don't need to know. In this case, it only serves to ruin a surprise.

I am still adamant that Screamscape made one of the poorest decisions one can make. They took something that was not theirs to begin with in order to recieve glory and attention. Oh they got the attention all right, and I expect they will get more... But in my eyes they did nothing but solidify the very shallow reputation they have always had.

Shaggy

I agree with Screamscapes decision. Did it ever occur to anyone that screamscape is in the business of rumors? And its funny, I remember 'insider' getting the plans to goliath on another coaster message boards, no complaints there...

It's very funny how Jeff can condone screamscapes actions, but defend his because it was "obvious." Maybe screamscape had permission to post those? Maybe screamscape felt it was obvious?

All I'm saying is do we know everything about the situation? No, we don't. We are just jumping to conclusions.

Finally, I do think that the leak was intentional on the parks behalf. All this secrecy, even to the point where the manufacturer was contractually obligated to keep its mouth shut, and then all of a sudden blueprints pop up on the net?

People, just calm down! So we know its a giant top spin. We still don't know about the themeing, which is going to be the major part of the ride anyways....

Rant time again for Shaggy ;-)

To me the principle of the matter is what is at stake here.

Would you tell your neighbor's child about the big surprise they were getting from Santa Claus, which you were hiding in your basement for them? That, in my opinion, is what is happening here.

To shrug it off as "they are in the business of rumors" does not make them rank any higher in my book. To me a rumor would be: "I heard that in 2010 PKI is getting a B&M hyper" or such. Screamscape is not presenting this as rumor, he is presenting it as fact. Again, he is doing so as a "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" knee jerk reaction to his lack of credibility on the subject.

Don't get me wrong, I love rumors. I love park gossip. I love surfing the net for any new construction photos or tid bits that I can find. Why that is why I am reading this board right now.

However, I am sad that Screamscape could not have the forsight to see what effect this would have. And that by spliing the beans, they were telling all of us what Santa was bringing PKI this year.

Shaggy

Also, please don't get the impression that I will loose sleep over this. There are much bigger issues in life than amusement park secrets ;-) LOL

PxPxPunKrAwKeR...Gee, many footers in a row on the beach with bigger footers at the ends to obviously support something taller that definitely hints at, and damn near shouts, impulse...vs....a giant skeleton of a building that doesn't hint at any one type of ride.

Which one would be more logical to hint at in threads like these to maintain "friends" with a park?

People are already ridiculing Cedar Point for not announcing their new attraction...think of all the noise from people if Jeff hadn't dropped some clues? I think that what Jeff did benefited us all...what Screamscape did was just asinine.

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Shaggy,

Here is the picture I'm talking about, it was posted on August 24th at www.pkiguide.com.

http://pkiguide.com/construction/082401/11.jpg

2 large concrete pads with anchor bolt patterns on each end. Looks like individual footers and the perfect spot to mount a Giant Top Spin to me.

I don't contest the idea that PKI probably didn't want project plans published on the Internet. I find it funny how many people gave them all kinds of props and praise for keeping the project under wraps all this time, when in reality it was leaked long before they announced it themselves.

My point is ScreamScape has been saying Giant Top Spin for months now, all the way back to "Inferno." I guess most called this rumor or speculation, but turns out it was fact. Having the plans, ScreamScape knew it was fact, and presented it as such. Lance at Screamscape isn't labeled the bad guy here yet, despite the fact that he has knowingly published what TR:TR is. Why? Because, the only thing that kept it being recognized as fact was the question of ScreamScape's credibility. As soon as Lance posts proof of what he has been saying for months he becomes the bad guy.

I don't think Lance is the bad guy here, he's done exactly what he has always done.Is the entire Screamscape site published for "glory and attention?"The site is for both NEWS and RUMOR, turns out this was always news and never rumor. Personally, I'm surprised he sat on the plans for as long as he did. The only fault here lies with the person who leaked the plans to Lance. Whoever leaked them did so under the assumption that some, if not all of it would be published.

*** This post was edited by The Anti-Rumor on 11/11/2001. ***

CPgenius,

"giant skeleton of a building that doesn't hint at any one type of ride."

I invite you to look at the picture linked in my post above, it looks like a pretty good hint to me.

"People are already ridiculing Cedar Point for not announcing their new attraction...think of all the noise from people if Jeff hadn't dropped some clues? I think that what Jeff did benefited us all...what Screamscape did was just asinine"

This has to be some of the most flawed logic I've ever seen, especially coming from a self proclaimed genius. When TR:TR was announced there was TONS of "noise" from people who wanted to know exactly what it was. ScreamScape posts what it is to quell all the noise and its "just asinine."

Cedar Point hasn't even announced they are building anything yet, but pictures of footers are all over and there was TONS of "noise" from people who wanted to know exactly what it is. Jeff posts what it is (becuase its obvious, of course) to quell all the noise but in this case its not "just asinine" its a benefit to us all.

There is no difference between these two situations, but under your logic one is a "benefit" and the other is "just asinine." I think your logic is "just asinine."

Jeff is known to have a good reputation with Cedar Point, he says its a modified impluse. Given the situation, most people believe its an impulse. Why isn't Jeff a bad guy for spilling the beans on CP's unannouned project early? If he posted pictures of the planned attraction would he still be benfitting us, or would he then be "just asinine?"

*** This post was edited by The Anti-Rumor on 11/11/2001. ***

CPGenius...Gee, 2 large concrete pads with anchor bolt patterns on each end to obviously support a flat ride that definitely hints at, or confirms what screamscape has said all along.

Like the anti-rumor has said, screamscape has said all along that it was a giant top spin, and now the proof is there. And like I said before, so we know what type of ride it is, but it's the themeing that is going to make the ride! We know nothing about that, so the suprise isn't ruined by any means...

And about the impluse, Jeff didn't need to drop any clues, speculation had already run wild before jeff had started dropping clues. A personal friend of mine (chris senn on these boards) had said P would get an intamin on these boards long before Jeff had starting hinting at it. It didn't become "fact" until Jeff said so...Same situation applies to TR:TR. People, including Screamscape, said it would be a giant top spin. No one wanted to believe that it would just be a "flat ride in a box" (which it isnt entirely), so they dismissed it. Now that screamscape has proven everyone wrong by providing proof (even if it is in the form of blueprints), everyone is crying foul!

You know what else I find funny? The hypocricy of the whole situation. Jeff, no offense, but here you are condoning the actions of screamscape.com and yet a news item (yes, I know it wasn't posted by you) on your site reads "photos and blue prints of unannounced New England oaster posted" Upon clicking the link, you'll notice that the pictures were taken from blueprints inside the constuction trailer. True, SFNE didn't go out of its way to cover it up, but do you think they want blueprints of their new unannounced coaster floating around on the internet? And the nature in which the blueprints were taken, And even funnier is not one member on these boards even complained one bit....pretty funny isn't it? Blueprints of new B&M coaster taken by poking around in a construction trailer=good and blueprints of TR:TR on screamscape=bad. How does that work?

*** This post was edited by PxPxPunKrAwKeR on 11/11/2001. ***

Don't bring my screen name into your post to ridicule me...when I joined these boards over 20 months ago, I thought up a screen name that applied to me...(CP) because I like Cedar Point and (genius) because of a 4.0 GPA...I put them together and POOF...I got CPgenius.

How do you know that the 2 concrete pad footers couldn't be for an upper level of the building or placement for some giant prop? An impulse's layout is very easy to make out, but the flat ride's can be just about anything. I hadn't seen those footers until after I posted, so don't go pulling an "Ex post facto" on me...ok?

*** This post was edited by CPgenius on 11/11/2001. ***

True, an impluses layout is much easier to spot, but there is no way you can be 100% sure is there? Oh wait, yes you can, Jeff said it's an impluse, so there you have it, it's an impluse.

Now take the situation with TR:TR, exactly the same. A few people by looking at the footers distinguish the ride as a giant top spin. Screamscape just confirms it for us.

And like anti-rumor, I ask what if Jeff had posted blueprints of CP's new coaster? Or like I posted out in my previous post, I didn't see you or anyone else attacking sixflagsnews.com for posting those SFNE blueprints...

screamscape?

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Life is like a Paulie Shore movie, It dosn't make sense.

I don't know of a time that Jeff has steered us wrong when he had info about something...he did nuke the rumor section because he didn't want it turn turn into another Thrillride (RIP), but Screamscape has been wrong many times...in another thread, another person mentioned how they have posted a couple different rumors on what they believed it was.

Jeff also said in another thread that he had blueprints of a ride two years ago, but never even thought of making it public info because it was meant to be private.

*** This post was edited by CPgenius on 11/11/2001. ***

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