And the pay-to-ride schemes just keep on coming...
It's hard for me to fight for this one, because I'm not really sure I believe it myself.
I think there are dots to be connected, but in this case I agree that connecting them is a stretch.
Does Gonch acquiesce? Can I do a small dance? I'll just have a cigarette instead (my wife recently installed a smoking patio for me at the far corner of the backyard ;) ).
Bolliger/Mabillard for President in '08 NOT Dinn/Summers
And now...we are back to the essence of what drives all these debates...:)
But you must admit that some people who use any any expensive upgrade to a park admission buy into it at least partly because it is a status symbol, like a Hummer or a designer purse. "Look at me, look at me! Because I have more than you I can cut right in front of you! I must be better than you!"
Of which my response is, "So what. You wouldn't be getting away with it if the parks weren't so greedy." I am not holding blame with the people who can afford to cut me in line, I am blaming the parks for offering the service.
Yes, a longer line (than an empty line) is what people running to the ride at park opening will be met with, but I really don't think that the price of the upgrade is so low that such a huge amount of people will be in that line come 10:00. A ride like Griffin has a pretty high capacity. You may have to wait less than 5 minutes.
One more thing about comparing early entry to cut-in-line "service". The way BG is doing this also prevents the idea that the park could be running rides with low capacity on purpose in order to sell more upgrades, like SF has been accused of doing in the past. If something is low capacity or closed at BG, it won't seem like the park could be doing it on purpose.
Early entry is STILL not as invasive to a regular visitor's experience, imho. Like I said before, CP does it, and they seem to understand service and capacity more than anyone.
*** Edited 6/3/2007 3:33:16 PM UTC by dexter***
Lets say a group of 4, with out the flash pass. Your going to need 2 days, plus a hotel. To buy online tickets (cheaper) for 2 days is $45.99 per person. Total of 367.92 for 4 people for 2 days. Plus I am going to estimate a hotel room at $115 dollars with all the taxes. That comes to$482.92.
Now lets say we get a Gold flash pass, for 4 people $176. Then we only need one day of tickets, $183.96, and no hotel room, because it become a day trip now. Brings your total down to $359.96
That brings down your expenses by $122.96!! And thats not even counting the money you would save with not having to buy expensive park food and drinks for a day. That could easily be another $100 in savings with 4 people, and I believe that is a LOW estimate.
That is why i say a Flash pass is a must, not because I have more money to spend and flaunt, but because I need to save money. Still though, I wish they were non existant.
dexter said:
But you must admit that some people who use any any expensive upgrade to a park admission buy into it at least partly because it is a status symbol, like a Hummer or a designer purse. "Look at me, look at me! Because I have more than you I can cut right in front of you! I must be better than you!"
Ooooh. I don't agree with that at all.
I suppose it depends on the definition of 'some' - but I'd say very few.
Couldn't it just be that people use these things because it offers a value to them? We've used Q-bot. You know why? I'd prefer not to stand in lines (or stand in two at once) and the service offered for the price is totally worth it to me. For the price, what you receive in return is a great value and it's a price that I can stand to part with.
It has nothing to do with status and everything to do with making my day better with a service offered at a price that is worth it to me.
And I hate to tread in such controversial areas, but this is what 'Playa meant with the 'inferiority complex' thing from that closed thread. Many of your posts carry the general theme of someone being 'better' than you or people not seeing your potential or similar ideas. Sometimes I think you're focused on status and impressions way more than the people you accuse of such mentality.
Trust me, most people using upcharge services at parks don't care what you think and it's certainly not their motivation for purchase. (ditto with the expensive car & purse owners)
But these are just MY personal preferences. I perfectly respect that Gonch, and people like him are able to use these systems to their liking. I've used them myself when I bother showing up...and care enough to want to get on all the rides. I'm sure this is GREAT business sense for the parks. There are obviously more people like Gonch…who want these perks, versus guys like me…who just stop going.
For ME...these systems, the reduced hours, reduced ride capacity, etc...are all little things that add up to my decreased interest in going to parks as much as I used to. While I can understand that my willingness to NOT go may be rare…I can’t believe that I’m alone in the sentiment. There has to be a certain percentage of guests who reduce their visits to these parks based upon frustrating experiences…
I guess I’m in the “great unknown” camp. I think these systems will help the bottom line of the major park chains (Disney and Universal) who offer a higher end experience. I’m not sure what the long-term affect will be for the Six Flags and Cedar Fairs. There will certainly be a short-term demand and income increase…but over time they risk alienating guests who otherwise might have returned year-after-year. The question is whether the short term increase covers the expected losses…?
We’ve had a lot of discussion about amusement parks being slow growth entities. I throw this out for discussion purposes…as I’m not sure what I believe…BUT maybe the reason they are not growing like other entertainment outlets is that they’ve got a long history for poor customer service. Movie multiplexes continue to thrive in the era of home entertainment. Sports entertainment is up in terms of attendance and TV ratings. Entertainment/shopping districts have thrived everywhere. The country’s population continues to increase as does our economy and expendable incomes. Yet amusement parks plug along…unable to increase their attendance levels past what they were 10 years ago (at least the regional chains).
What I’m trying to say is that there is good chance that the reason this is a stagnant business model…might be self-inflicted. Regional theme parks have a long history of chasing the short-term dollar at the expense of long-term growth. The one-train operation, staggered opening times of themed lands, reduced hour concessions, etc. are all business decisions that certainly saved a buck short-term. Yet as competing entertainment businesses have thrived…amusement parks are old growth…unable to attract new customers.
So the current solution is to reduce park operating hours, jack up food prices while offering crappy quality, and implement pay to ride plans, etc… I suggest that current practice COULD be more of the same. A bunch of short-term cash infusing policy changes that likely will alienate clientele in the long run…and assure that 10-15 years from now we are speaking of amusement parks as old growth entities…of course there will be less parks to talk about at that time.
In Vegas…the current trend is for public casinos (see Station Casinos, recent Bellagio proposal,etc) to return to the private sector through private equity acquisitions. The driving force behind these changes is a realization that the pressure on public companies to meet and exceed expectations every quarter is not necessarily good for long-term prognosis. I wonder if the same can be said for amusement parks?
-Tina
Come on, Gonch. You know that I'm on to you. Admit it. You LOVE doing so. :p
I don't take any offense to your post about me Gonch. We disagree. It's CoasterBuzz. I do have to defend myself though, as I feel that I have not been successful in communicating the ideals I represent. I do not think that ANYBODY is better than me. I believe that some people in this world feel that they are better than me, and I do have a problem with that,but I try to just laugh at them.
I actually have a pretty big ego. That came from being slightly famous in my early adulthood as a front man for a rock band. A lot of people looked up to me, and a lot of people still do.
I am working at a retail store right now that has an economical mix of customers (Oh the stories I could tell to get you to understand...). The people who drive the Hummers and Lexis' are sometimes nice and respectful, but I have noticed that some (less than some, to be fair) people with money tend to let it make them falsely feel as if they are superior to me and my coworkers. Still, I laugh at them (usually after they leave the store lol), and I in no way let them make me feel that they are right. They have more money than me, but some of those people are still miserable. On the other hand, some poor people are miserable too, so what does money matter in that respect? The point is that I have observed and have experience with people I am describing.
I don't think all people with money are poopyheads. Just the ones who think that money makes them better than me. I have a lot of friends and family who have money. Only a small minority of them are stuck up.
The dex of a few years ago is not the dex of today, I might add. A few years ago I was having some very difficult personal problems that I finally erased, for the most part. In short, I was hitting bottom from a depression I was suffering as I fell from being someone very popular (much like a child movie star, but on a MUCH smaller scale. I know it doesn't sound serious but to me at the time it was very. I lost the chance at a record deal). My circumstances affected my attitude in my posts. I'm still not quite where I need to be in life, but at least now I know where, how, and when I'll get there.
I'm sorry that this was so off topic.
About Q-Bots...I'd be all for it if they could just figure out a way to do it without decreasing non-Botter capacity(impossible maybe?). When one person is taking up more than one place in line, the park is more crowded with virtual bodies, which lowers how many rides people who don't have Q-Bot get. This devalues some people's experience. People who do not have Q-Bot are handing over rides that they would have normally have got if everyone was standing in the same lines. I'm just old school. I want it to be the way it was.
Even when I am well off with enough money I will still feel this way, because to me it is just wrong. I will still feel forced to rent a Bot sometimes, because I will be able to afford it (I probably can now)and it really is the only way to be able to get enough rides on busy days (because of decreased capacity of non-Botter guests).
On the other hand, now that SF is set on running rides at capacity (We'll see how long it lasts though), maybe Q-Bot will actually work the way it was envisioned and there will not be such a drastic separation in how many rides non-Botters get compared to Botters.
Hey...That was somewhat off topic too. Wasn't this about BG and early admittance to ONE ride with breakfast and a photo? I still agree with this kind of up charge service, btw. I wouldn't even feel guilty buying it myself.
*** Edited 6/4/2007 4:21:44 AM UTC by dexter***
Lord Gonchar said:
So it is all about the perception thing.I do understand why you're ok with this, Dexter. But this is where I'd rather be a thinker than a feeler.
BGE just thought of a way to sell your time without you feeling angry about it. ;)
I find your statement to be fascinating as I'm currently reading a book called "Do What You Are." It's all based on the Myers-Brigg personality types of which there are sixteen. This book is actually highly recommended by the guy who wrote "What Color is Your Parachute."
And LG, according to the book, you can't rather be a thinker. You are already one!
From the book:
Thinkers: prefer decisions that make sense logically. They pride themselves on their ability to be objective and analytical in the decision-making process. They make decisions by analyzing and weighing the evidence, even if that means coming to unpleasant conditions.
Feelers: make decisions based on how much they care or what they feel is right. They pride themselves on their ability to be empathetic and compassionate. Obviously, Thinkers and Feelers have very different priorities.
[back to me]
I think if everyone would figure out their four-digit "code," and wore it on their shirt, or posted it online, we'd understand our motivations a lot more and would fight a lot less. The more I've been talking about this book, the more I'm meeting people who already know their letters, and it's absolutely enlightning when you read the part about possible blind spots and pitfalls.
The two things that struck me about my possible blind spots is that a) I'm vunerable to criticism of others because I tend to take feedback personally and become offended and discouraged (guilty) and b) I have trouble organizing my time and resources. I may have to work had to curb my impulse to go off and enjoy a quiet moment (No Limits/Coasterbuzz discussion), or participate in a particular activity (amusement parks anyone?).
I think if everyone would figure out their four-digit "code," and wore it on their shirt, or posted it online, we'd understand our motivations a lot more and would fight a lot less.
Two things:
1. I don't see it as a fight. It's an eternal back and forth that I enjoy partaking in. I like the 'fight'
2. I know my four-digit code - INTJ (link - pay special attention to the 10 tips at the bottom of the post :) )
Over time (whether it was in the past year or over the past few years doesn't really matter), the park has cut hours. Surely admission prices have not been cut in a relative way- if anything, BGE is like most parks and costs more and more each year. That said, the customer is paying more and getting less. Not sure what can be argued about that, but I'm sure someone will come up with something ;)
Meanwhile, the park is willing to give that time back to guests, but is going to charge you for the privilege. Granted, you're probably going to ride more during that hour than you would if the park was open to everybody, but iton the flip side of the coin, you're not getting close to the whole park, you're getting a small portion of it. You now have to pay for what was once included. Again, not sure how that can be spun another way.
I admit that some things are about perception- I'll even give it to Gonch that free parking isn't really free, and that the cost of parking is somehow integrated into the price of something else (after all, nothing is ever free)- but this isn't one of them. It's a case of paying more but getting less. Not a good deal in my eyes, even though it solves that pesky moral issue of paying to cut someone else in line. For that, I'll hand it to Busch.
Rob Ascough said:
Over time (whether it was in the past year or over the past few years doesn't really matter), the park has cut hours. Surely admission prices have not been cut in a relative way- if anything, BGE is like most parks and costs more and more each year. That said, the customer is paying more and getting less. Not sure what can be argued about that, but I'm sure someone will come up with somethingMeanwhile, the park is willing to give that time back to guests, but is going to charge you for the privilege.
Hey, I'm on your side on this one! :)
(and honestly, I had you in mind when I took that side of the issue - been missing you around here for the past few days)
Further segregation of classes, etc.
It's all fair though :)
So... who's gonna pay for this spiritually ;)
I know thats gonna get some good laughs, as it should.
But really, how bout Karma?
Weren't we supposed to be learned on how "to treat others" growing up? The big parks aren't doing this. Bottom line, in my opinion. Biz models and stocks and all that sh&t aside... it won't matter when your dead. It all comes back to you, it really does.
^ I can't believe we're on the same side here. Maybe the cabin pressure in the plane was too much and the past few days have been a hallucination (vacation was the reason you've been missing me- as much as I love you guys and gals, there was little time for me to be on the computer while I was gone)?
Not sure I had a point to make, just saying "hello", I s'pose.
It was more in response to how people seemed to be accepting of this form of upcharge priviledge. Doesn't necessarily seem all that different to me.
I think pretty much all of the regular players in the 'upcharge debate' game all have similar but slightly different angles behind their love or hate of such things. I think that's why sometimes it seems contradictory to me even though it isn't.
I break it down as black & white as this:
Amusement parks are not a right & everything is worth whatever someone will pay for it.
Karma can stand in line with everyone else, I'm ponying up to skip the line. ;)
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