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The fact is that coasters are at their height limit. The human body can only take so much force. Bigger and faster is not better, just more sensational.
If some theories on here are correct about the blood being pushed out of your head in a helix, bottom of a drop, etc, when a rider is sitting uprright, one would have to ask what kind of forces are going to be put on the head on X when a rider is dropped head first.
Coasters must be designed to prevent injuries or tragedies from happening to riders. Most of you shrug this Magic Mountain incident off as a pre-exisiting condition, but that coaster put a huge amount of force on the body as reports on here say. You would not be shrugging this off if this tragedy involved one of your friends or family.....
If some theories on here are correct about the blood being pushed out of your head in a helix, bottom of a drop, etc, when a rider is sitting uprright, one would have to ask what kind of forces are going to be put on the head on X when a rider is dropped head first.
Coasters must be designed to prevent injuries or tragedies from happening to riders. Most of you shrug this Magic Mountain incident off as a pre-exisiting condition, but that coaster put a huge amount of force on the body as reports on here say. You would not be shrugging this off if this tragedy involved one of your friends or family.....
Mine Rider said:
"I just saw this. They seemed to be asking the question in the report "are the forces on coasters too great for the human body" I guess that this is better than saying that they are unsafe because of mechanical reasons, but this question will eventually have to be answered. What g-forces are too great for the human body to withstand?"
Well, I think we are safe. If we don't have to have a flight suit and have to do those breathing pushing exercises that fighter pilots do, then the sky's the limit.
Supersonic
Super7,
I have issues with a few of your statements, let me rebut them.
"The fact is that coasters are at their height limit. The human body can only take so much force. Bigger and faster is not better, just more sensational."
If a coaster is made that is 500 foot tall if it is designed with proper radius turns and elements, it could exert less G-loading than a hyper. G-loading is not only attributable to height, it is related to speed and angular velocity. I have been on more intense 150 foot coasters than the 260 foot Raging Bull, for example.
"...one would have to ask what kind of forces are going to be put on the head on X when a rider is dropped head first. "
Not having seen the entire coaster path and the rotation of the seats, I am commenting blindly (as are you). But I can assure you that all aspects of X have been looked over by many engineers who understand G-loading and the effects on the human body. That being said, when you are on a drop, you are experiencing negative Gs that pull blood upwards, if you are in a head-first dive that you described, the blood would rush towards your feet, not your head.
"Coasters must be designed to prevent injuries or tragedies from happening to riders. "
They are and have always been.
"...but that coaster put a huge amount of force on the body as reports on here say. "
Yes, there are positive G-forces on that ride (and all coasters). But positive G-forces pull blood downwards and in the seated position, it again pulls the blood to your lower extremeties, not your head.
"You would not be shrugging this off if this tragedy involved one of your friends or family....."
True, but I would not be looking for a scapegoat either. The coaster nor the park was not negligent in the design of management of the park or the coaster. The ride was and is operating within normal specifications, there was not malfunction. There was no crash. What there was was a tragic and unfortunate incident that occurred on a ride. Is it the ride's fault? No. If her aneurism was to have burst while walking on the sidewalk, is it the sidewalk's fault? No. Then why is it a problem with the coaster? My grandfather died while eating a grapefruit at the breakfast table. Should my family have tried to ban grapefruits? (Or have them limited in their usage?)
Don't get me wrong. I feel for the lady's family. But, causality has not been proven to me. It was (and is) an unfortunate incident but it is not the ride's fault.
Sorry for the length of this post, but I had to have my say on this topic.
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"It's Deja Vu all over again." - Yogi Berra *** This post was edited by redman822 on 6/6/2001. ***
I have issues with a few of your statements, let me rebut them.
"The fact is that coasters are at their height limit. The human body can only take so much force. Bigger and faster is not better, just more sensational."
If a coaster is made that is 500 foot tall if it is designed with proper radius turns and elements, it could exert less G-loading than a hyper. G-loading is not only attributable to height, it is related to speed and angular velocity. I have been on more intense 150 foot coasters than the 260 foot Raging Bull, for example.
"...one would have to ask what kind of forces are going to be put on the head on X when a rider is dropped head first. "
Not having seen the entire coaster path and the rotation of the seats, I am commenting blindly (as are you). But I can assure you that all aspects of X have been looked over by many engineers who understand G-loading and the effects on the human body. That being said, when you are on a drop, you are experiencing negative Gs that pull blood upwards, if you are in a head-first dive that you described, the blood would rush towards your feet, not your head.
"Coasters must be designed to prevent injuries or tragedies from happening to riders. "
They are and have always been.
"...but that coaster put a huge amount of force on the body as reports on here say. "
Yes, there are positive G-forces on that ride (and all coasters). But positive G-forces pull blood downwards and in the seated position, it again pulls the blood to your lower extremeties, not your head.
"You would not be shrugging this off if this tragedy involved one of your friends or family....."
True, but I would not be looking for a scapegoat either. The coaster nor the park was not negligent in the design of management of the park or the coaster. The ride was and is operating within normal specifications, there was not malfunction. There was no crash. What there was was a tragic and unfortunate incident that occurred on a ride. Is it the ride's fault? No. If her aneurism was to have burst while walking on the sidewalk, is it the sidewalk's fault? No. Then why is it a problem with the coaster? My grandfather died while eating a grapefruit at the breakfast table. Should my family have tried to ban grapefruits? (Or have them limited in their usage?)
Don't get me wrong. I feel for the lady's family. But, causality has not been proven to me. It was (and is) an unfortunate incident but it is not the ride's fault.
Sorry for the length of this post, but I had to have my say on this topic.
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"It's Deja Vu all over again." - Yogi Berra *** This post was edited by redman822 on 6/6/2001. ***
super7 said:
"Most of you shrug this Magic Mountain incident off as a pre-exisiting condition, but that coaster put a huge amount of force on the body as reports on here say."
I have no doubt that the forces that Goliath put on the person's body probably caused the aneurysm (sp) to burst. However, any stress... a sneeze, a cough, bending down to pick something off the ground, turning her head to quickly... could cause something like that to burst.
Did the coaster design cause this to happen? It just happened to be the incident that caused it, but was not the cause of it. Was the park negligent? No. Was it a "pre existing condition"? Probably, but we can also not blame this young woman because it was an unkown condition.
It was a freak accident, no use trying to pin blame on anyone.
However, a side note... if Goliath does in deed cause some to black out or "grey out" on its final helix (correct me if I am wrong) as some have stated... well... then perhaps this coaster is TOO intense. Personally speaking... from the head banging etc on the (thankfully) defunct Steel Phantom, I experienced a moment of black out. I don't consider that fun. While the esteemed Mr.Markey (read sarcasm there) and others with their bill to tame down coaster forces may be a bit of over kill ("we know best... we will protect you from yourself"), EXTREME forces are unnecessary and will be accidents waiting to happen.
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"Resistance is futile... you will be assimilated." The BORG's (and Six Flags') motto.
sflake
thanks, that is my point, i just didn't state it well. These extreme forces are not necessary. I read of gray-outs and black outs on here before, and i thought they were just kids posting to be cool. After riding Millenum Force, 2 of the 3 times, my vision became gray on the first overbanked turn. A result of too much force. This did not make the ride enjoyable, as i lost some of my senses for those few seconds. I rode it 3 times to be sure this wasn't my imagination. Because of this, i probably won't ride it again. It didn't do anything for me that Magnum with its 200 ft height does, and all moments on that coaster, i could sense everything that was going on 100%.
thanks, that is my point, i just didn't state it well. These extreme forces are not necessary. I read of gray-outs and black outs on here before, and i thought they were just kids posting to be cool. After riding Millenum Force, 2 of the 3 times, my vision became gray on the first overbanked turn. A result of too much force. This did not make the ride enjoyable, as i lost some of my senses for those few seconds. I rode it 3 times to be sure this wasn't my imagination. Because of this, i probably won't ride it again. It didn't do anything for me that Magnum with its 200 ft height does, and all moments on that coaster, i could sense everything that was going on 100%.
super7: You say that coasters are at their height limit, when in fact that isn't true. As redman said, a proper pull-out minimizes forces on the body. Did you know that Wildcat, Cedar Point's smallest adult coaster, actually pulls more G's than Millennium Force? It's true.
Honestly, if people are that concerned, they should stay home. I'll do at least a dozen things today that are a hundred times more dangerous than riding a roller coaster today.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
Honestly, if people are that concerned, they should stay home. I'll do at least a dozen things today that are a hundred times more dangerous than riding a roller coaster today.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
I find it discouraging that even coaster enthusiats refer to speed and height as risk factors on coasters. The media loves to refer to these because they are simple concepts that everyone knows. Neither speed not height is a risk factor. If they were risk factors none of us would survive our first ride in a jet airliner.
The real risk factors are G-forces, vibration, shaking, and impact. Conventional G-forces may be the least of these, though the intensity of vibration, shaking and impact are often expressed in terms of G-forces. For example, crash helmets are designed to keep the acceleration of you head in a crash to less than 100 G's (If I remember the number correctly) to keep your brain from hitting the inside of your skull. Yes, a small part of your body can survive that kind of acceleration for a very brief (milliseconds) period without serious damage.
As real coaster examples, Millenium Force with its 93 mph speed and 310 foot height is much less likely to cause brain injury that a severe head banging coaster with OTSRs.
The real risk factors are G-forces, vibration, shaking, and impact. Conventional G-forces may be the least of these, though the intensity of vibration, shaking and impact are often expressed in terms of G-forces. For example, crash helmets are designed to keep the acceleration of you head in a crash to less than 100 G's (If I remember the number correctly) to keep your brain from hitting the inside of your skull. Yes, a small part of your body can survive that kind of acceleration for a very brief (milliseconds) period without serious damage.
As real coaster examples, Millenium Force with its 93 mph speed and 310 foot height is much less likely to cause brain injury that a severe head banging coaster with OTSRs.
There is more risk that you will die going swimming, driving your car, having a cold, stepping outside in a storm, petting a dog(never know he could be rabid), or doing anything that we do EVERYDAY!!! The point is, everyting has a risk, nothing is 100% safe, and the parks state it blatently on all of there coasters(there is always a sign stating the risk). The press needs something to talk about, and when something DOES happen they are on it like sharks. Once the coroner states that the coaster did nothing that standing up to quickly wouldn/t have done to her, it will be forgotten, and rides will continue as normal!!
P.S. Super 7, the first turn-around on Millenium Force is overbanked for a reason, not just thrills, but the fact it focuses G-Forces on your mid-section(described as your heartline by some enthusiasts), therefor, these forces should not cause yourself to blackout.... Jeff, you state your point well, Wildcat is more likely to make you grey-out than MF.....
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Life is short, make it count...
P.S. Super 7, the first turn-around on Millenium Force is overbanked for a reason, not just thrills, but the fact it focuses G-Forces on your mid-section(described as your heartline by some enthusiasts), therefor, these forces should not cause yourself to blackout.... Jeff, you state your point well, Wildcat is more likely to make you grey-out than MF.....
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Life is short, make it count...
You say that coasters are at their height limit, when in fact that isn't true. As redman said, a proper pull-out minimizes forces on the body. Did you know that Wildcat, Cedar Point's smallest adult coaster, actually pulls more G's than Millennium Force? It's true.
I have a question here,is there actually a height limit set for parks by the states they inhabit? Do they require state permitts like regular people do for things like building houses and any other type of building?I know they have state inspections but,can the state actually control what is built within the park in the way of how high the peak of a coaster can go?
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~*Rickyswmn*~
I have a question here,is there actually a height limit set for parks by the states they inhabit? Do they require state permitts like regular people do for things like building houses and any other type of building?I know they have state inspections but,can the state actually control what is built within the park in the way of how high the peak of a coaster can go?
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~*Rickyswmn*~
They have to be passed by the city board before they are built if that's what you mean...that's how we know how tall an attraction will be built at parks before an official announcement is made.
That dumb rep., Markey, wants to regulate park attractions though.
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(Who at 16 years of age would be more than willing to pay a $15-$25 dollar subscription in order to keep this site running)
That dumb rep., Markey, wants to regulate park attractions though.
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(Who at 16 years of age would be more than willing to pay a $15-$25 dollar subscription in order to keep this site running)
Boy, this discussion gets me hot. A friend of mine was at the gym (she was 25 years old), rode the stairmaster, walked off, and dropped dead from an aneurysm. Now, she worked out all the time, so who and what are we supposed to blame? The stairmaster company? Of course not! It was a sad, but rare and freaky occurrence.
Thank you everyone for expressing your anger. Damn, I wish they would concentrate on REAL problems. Like the milk industry telling us that "milk does a body good." IT DOES NOT!! Cow's milk is for baby cows. And when they grow up they don't drink it any more!! Why would we drink another animal's baby formula?
Sorry for going off on a tangent, but this burns me up. I hate it when people try to regulate my FUN in the name of "safety". Bull****. *** This post was edited by Dirk on 6/6/2001. ***
Thank you everyone for expressing your anger. Damn, I wish they would concentrate on REAL problems. Like the milk industry telling us that "milk does a body good." IT DOES NOT!! Cow's milk is for baby cows. And when they grow up they don't drink it any more!! Why would we drink another animal's baby formula?
Sorry for going off on a tangent, but this burns me up. I hate it when people try to regulate my FUN in the name of "safety". Bull****. *** This post was edited by Dirk on 6/6/2001. ***
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