2 different types of drops
When you look at Millennium force, you think "wow is that steep!", but it really doesnt have a whole bunch of 80 degree track, more like .3 seconds worth. The advantage of this is that your already going quite fast by the time you reach the steepest angle. Because MF transitions to 80, and back, during the whole drop, you have that really smooth, naturally feeling drop.
Now take something like Goliath. It transitions to the 61 degrees almost immediately at the apex, and has about the whole drop at the straight 61 degree angle. I actually favor this better. This is why.
1. You get more of a lift entering the drop, and it makes the impression that it is more steep.
2. It gives you more of a natural freefall, if its steep.
If MF did this, it would be unquestionably better, but there's several obvious reasons it cant. Mainly the speed at the top of the lift, the trains, and because Intamin just doesnt like to do that.
Now a 90 degree drop highlights this perfectly, once we start seeing them on 400+ foot rides. I doubt a ride will have an overhang drop, so a 90 degree drop would highlight the angle by having a lot of 90 degree track.
Just some thoughts, what do you think?
Now take something like Goliath. It transitions to the 61 degrees almost immediately at the apex, and has about the whole drop at the straight 61 degree angle. I actually favor this better. This is why.
1. You get more of a lift entering the drop, and it makes the impression that it is more steep.
2. It gives you more of a natural freefall, if its steep.
If MF did this, it would be unquestionably better, but there's several obvious reasons it cant. Mainly the speed at the top of the lift, the trains, and because Intamin just doesnt like to do that.
Now a 90 degree drop highlights this perfectly, once we start seeing them on 400+ foot rides. I doubt a ride will have an overhang drop, so a 90 degree drop would highlight the angle by having a lot of 90 degree track.
Just some thoughts, what do you think?
I always hate it when people talk smack on Goliath saying that 61 degrees is not steep. Look at some coaster stats, people. 61 degrees is steeper than more than 90% of ALL roller coasters in the world, including 13 out of 14 coasters at CP. Don't knock it till you try it. (that goes for the Steel Dragon as well)
They are 2 different beasts, and I for one, love them both.
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Gotta ride 'em all!
They are 2 different beasts, and I for one, love them both.
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Gotta ride 'em all!
I agree Soggy, everyone raves about how great and awesome Magnum's first drop is, and it's "only" 60 degrees. But those same same people knock Goliath because it's not as steep as MF. Goliath is incredible, as I'm sure MF is. Like you said, I'll hold my opinion on which is better when I actually get the chance to ride MF, instead of saying one is better than the other just because.
I have noticed that also. Goliath's first drop actually looks better than MF's WHEN RIDING. But MF is just darn pretty. It is really just knowing you are on a 310 ft. coaster that makes MF so great. I really wanna ride Goliath, because it's first drop is totally different, and it lasts a long time. That is what I like. I did feel MF';s drop doesn't last long enough.
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DOWN WITH TRIM BRAKES!
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DOWN WITH TRIM BRAKES!
I have to disagree with MF's drop not feeling steep. I think it feels like it's at 80 degrees nearly immediately while riding, and it feels like you're going straight down for almost the whole drop. At least, it did for me. And, if you look at the drop, it's at 80 degrees for about 100 feet of drop. That's a lot of drop. Sure, it's not the whole thing, but it's between 60 and 80 degrees for probably 225 feet of the drop, which is pretty nice, and steeper than 90% of all coasters for over 2/3 of it's drop. :)
Jman
Jman
No I am saying that the drop on Goliath looks better for like the on ride pov. I have never been on it. But watching the videos, it looks almost as good because it lasts so long. I have been on MF, it's sweet. I have seen the pics of Goliath, and it doesn't look as good as MF does. I am sure they are both awesome.
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DOWN WITH TRIM BRAKES!
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DOWN WITH TRIM BRAKES!
I think the original post over analyzes things entirely too much. How can a 300-foot drop at 80 degrees not feel steep? Should drops start and stop at right angles? You have to have room for the pull out and room to disengage the lift on any coaster.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
To answer your question, Jeff, it's highly unlikely that a 300 foot drop at 80 degrees will not feel steep. Thats not what I said at all, and no, right angles wouldn't exactly work, and that isnt my point either.
I just mean that MF's drop is entirely transitioning. That's great in it's own respect, but I'd rather it have that punch in the gut that Goliath delivers by the immediate steepness off the lift.
Actually, if you really take a look on the ride, there's actually around 10 feet of "true" 80 degree track on Millennium Force. Now this is a bit redundant, seeing as about 80 feet of drop are 70-80 degrees, but it gets my point across. I actually think that all other drops on a coaster, (I.E, following hills, bunny hops, mid course drops... etc) should be transitioning the entire hill - ALA S:ROS at SFNE.
Is it really a crime to over-analyze? Read the post more carefully... *** This post was edited by Millennium Force on 8/9/2000. ***
I just mean that MF's drop is entirely transitioning. That's great in it's own respect, but I'd rather it have that punch in the gut that Goliath delivers by the immediate steepness off the lift.
Actually, if you really take a look on the ride, there's actually around 10 feet of "true" 80 degree track on Millennium Force. Now this is a bit redundant, seeing as about 80 feet of drop are 70-80 degrees, but it gets my point across. I actually think that all other drops on a coaster, (I.E, following hills, bunny hops, mid course drops... etc) should be transitioning the entire hill - ALA S:ROS at SFNE.
Is it really a crime to over-analyze? Read the post more carefully... *** This post was edited by Millennium Force on 8/9/2000. ***
I sort of see what Millennium Force is saying. MF's first drop DOES seem very steep, but the drop doesn't make me lose my stomach or anything like that, where drops like the Gemini and Magnum, and I assume Goliath (that go to their steepest point sharply after disengaging off the chain) produce more of the stomach-churning feeling.
To me, the first hill on coasters like Goliath and Steel Dragon are just bigger copies of the Magnums first hill (which is just a bigger version of a hill on a standard Arrow looper). This is not a bad thing, as I am sure that all of these coasters are great fun to ride (I hope to ride Goliath next summer). But the hills on the new Intamin coasters are something new. They have a different profile with a different ride. I think this is what makes MF unique. If you drew a simple profile of Goliath, Steel Dragon, and Magnum, must people would have trouble telling them apart (ignoring the relative heights of each). But the profile of MF is unique, with the 45 degree ascent and the steep descent.
Actually, Steel Dragon transitions most of the drop as well. Magnum actually is a bit of a trade-off. There's a noticable amount of 60 degree track, but you dont hit it for a while.
Take the silhouette of every Morgan hyper, and they're identical. Goliath is almost unique in its drop. Am I missing anything? Oblivion has an extremely abrupt drop, but it has an ENORMOUS pull out...
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I would like 2 Steel Dragons and a king size MF to go, please.
Oh and can I get a Tonnerre de Zeus travelers cup?
Take the silhouette of every Morgan hyper, and they're identical. Goliath is almost unique in its drop. Am I missing anything? Oblivion has an extremely abrupt drop, but it has an ENORMOUS pull out...
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I would like 2 Steel Dragons and a king size MF to go, please.
Oh and can I get a Tonnerre de Zeus travelers cup?
RPMGuitar, I must disagree with your assesment of Goliath being similar to SD2K and Magnum. Goliath is much more of a freeform than an out & back. Unless you mean the first drop alone, not the rest of the ride.
I find it cool that the top 3 coasters in height are all 3 different rides. SD2K is an out & back, MF is a freeform with large swooping turns, and Goliath is a freeform with tight positave G's.
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Gotta ride 'em all!
I find it cool that the top 3 coasters in height are all 3 different rides. SD2K is an out & back, MF is a freeform with large swooping turns, and Goliath is a freeform with tight positave G's.
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Gotta ride 'em all!
I agree with Iron Dragon, it doesn't really look big at all when you are on the railroad. It is like huge when you ride though. Here is something that really put a damper on my MF relationship. When I was waiting along the frontier trail to get in line, I noticed something about the lift hill. In the middlie of the track, there is like two blue rails that the elevator slides up and down. Well, we all know that the elevator goes over the drop slightly, so gravity is pulling the train. Well, here is what I saw. When the elevator rails stop there is like 5 ft. of track then the crest at the bottom starts!!! Me and my friend were awe struck. Luckily, the ride is still amazing. I found that very interesting.
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DOWN WITH TRIM BRAKES!
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DOWN WITH TRIM BRAKES!
As for MF not looking big when you are right under it. This is true for any other coaster. Certain photos and view points(usually when takin or looked at from right under the first drop) make the coaster's drop not look steep at all. It makes it look like the pullout for the drop happens very quickly...I noticed this when I took some photos of Superman: ROS at Six Flags America.
This whole discussion is one big subjective mess of semantics, quite frankly. We all see things differently, and it's hard to quantify what we see. Combine this with the fact that few of us have been on all of the rides in question, and you have an endless round-and-round debate.
The "feel" of drops in my experience has more to do with the trains than anything else. Case in point, the drops on Villain with the open-faced Gerstlauer trains and the Intamin hyper trains (non-Force) seem to be more intense and more steep, not because of the angle of descent, but because of the open feeling of the cars.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
The "feel" of drops in my experience has more to do with the trains than anything else. Case in point, the drops on Villain with the open-faced Gerstlauer trains and the Intamin hyper trains (non-Force) seem to be more intense and more steep, not because of the angle of descent, but because of the open feeling of the cars.
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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
I actually like this discussion Jeff, it's the first time that I have seen hyper drops compared without the usual SFMM vs. CP thing. I applaud all of the posters on this thread for showing some maturity on this topic. MF's drop is magnificent, pure and simple. Does that mean i'll never enjoy a 60 degree drop ever again? Of course not. Raging Bull's first drop gets me every time, and the length of Goliath's 61 degree drop makes for some fantastic air in the back. Remember people, first drops are fun, but it's the rest that makes for classics :)
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