RIP Clermont Steel?

In the "where there's smoke there's (possibly) fire" department, I've seen a lot of smoke regarding Clermont Steel closing and/or B&M no longer using them for fabrication.

Thoosies are trying to connect this with the new B&M rattle, implying that Clermont is at fault for poor manufacturing. Obviously this is far-fetched. However, if the news is accurate, a lot of things could be at blame, with tariffs and the substantial changes in geopolitics and macroeconomics being prime suspects.

This would be a loss for American manufacturing. While not nearly as important as jobs and livelihoods being affected, it'll be sad to no longer see track for unannounced projects sitting out in Ohio or going around the country on trucks. They seemed pretty cool with thoosies too, given that Jeff was given a tour a while back.

“Thoosies” is up there with “Maggie”,“Millie”, snd “SteVe.”

PhantomTails:

Thoosies are trying to connect this with the new B&M rattle,

I don't know where I read this — it may have well been here — but B&M may have loosened their tolerances to keep new rides affordable?

I worked with Clermont directly a few times the past few years, but it's been a few months since I have since our program got dropped and what I was working on will no longer be made there. I might send them an email just to give an update and see if anything comes back.

About the rattle... I personally doubt it's anything with the track manufacturing itself, per-say. My main leading theory is that the special cold rolled pipe I believe they used to get imported for the running rails from Europe was dropped in favor (by B&M due to cost) by more traditional extruded pipe options, which is not as precise tolerance wise and a worse surface finish. Have a more sloppy running rail, you might get a bit more hunting in the wheel assembly and feel things a bit more. With steel prices going up and more competition than ever the past years, B&M may have done in this as well as other changes, to reduce costs.

The track welding/fabrication is probably near identical as it always has. Those guys are GOOD and have been doing it for decades. I doubt their processes got worse. My bet is on the material selection by B&M along with some other structural design type changes.

Make of this what you will: The rattle was reported in the Nemesis and Dragon Kahn replacements- and neither of those had new trains.

PhantomTails:

They seemed pretty cool with thoosies too, given that Jeff was given a tour a while back.

To be clear, I was a guest of Cedar Fair, not the plant.

...but B&M may have loosened their tolerances to keep new rides affordable?

If they said that here, I'm sure we would have laughed them off the site. How one equates that with savings is beyond me.

I think the newest thing I've been on is the family ride at SeaWorld, and it seemed no different than any other new B&M to me. The Clermont guys have been doing this for decades. I have a hard time believing they're suddenly sucking at it.

I didn't recall where the rails are bent though. I think those come from Europe.

Jeff:

I didn't recall where the rails are bent though. I think those come from Europe.

If I recall in my discussion with them, the rail material used to be imported (again, special process pipe) but they would bend and do all that stuff per design with the raw material. They didn't come pre-bent or processed or anything.

Vater:

Thoosies” is up there with “Maggie”,“Millie”, snd “SteVe.”

It’s far worse. Also, it’s SVen.

Sad news. Rumor has it B&M track from now on will be manufactured in Hungary by Stakotra Manufacturing.

Well, it's not news, it's an unattributed rumor.

Jeff:

I think the newest thing I've been on is the family ride at SeaWorld, and it seemed no different than any other new B&M to me.

As far as new B&M's, I've only done the family inverted at Busch Tampa, and was shocked. I hadn't yet encountered the rattle that everyone else had mentioned (lack of travel to parks with new B&M's) but wow was it noticeable. Like One and Done noticeable, on what should have been a fun little ride.

I can't believe that B&M haven't noticed this, and by extension, done (are doing) something about it. If Clermont is out (going only by the above comments in this thread) then maybe that's the "doing". Otherwise, I'm just stunned that this is now "acceptable" over what, at least 10 new installations now?

CreditWh0re:

I can't believe that B&M haven't noticed this, and by extension, done (are doing) something about it.

To be fair, Mack had the same issues recently on both Voltron and Stardust Racers. A lot of track modifications, sanding and alignment to remedy areas of this exact same issue. A lot of testing and on-site time has been spent by engineers to figure out and get the problem areas fixed.

this thread was about Clermont, so Mack's issues were not originally germane. Not disputing them.

That said, both teams are experts in their field, and technology is only getting better, so what has gone wrong? I honestly thought that some of the "B&M Rattle" commentary was this audience aging out (See Andy's recent trip report about being "too old for this $#!7"). BGT's new family ride disabused me of that thought.

I won't say that I never encountered it, because Hydra at Dorney felt like ass. But that's, what 15-years-old? Always seemed like a weird anomaly.

In my non-expert mind that appreciates physics and manufacturing, there's little question that the track ties are accurate in size to the millimeter. You've seen my video. They're cut with lasers to spec. Those aren't going to suddenly get sloppy. The pieces of steel in between are also laser cut, so those aren't going to get sloppy. So that leaves the attachment to ties, which I can't imagine are "wrong" just because, well, if the above steps were wrong, the rails wouldn't attach right in an obvious way.

I dunno, assuming there's a real problem that isn't worn wheels that are not replaced, I don't know what it could be.

Jeff I agree with you in all respects (thus why I initially brushed off the "rattle" comments as this audience getting old).

Again, it seems so pervasive across almost every new installation in the last 3 years to not be real. So then, what is it? Is it the trains themselves?

I don't know, but I'm a believer now.

I saw a Tik Tok yesterday where the poster said he was showing the visible rattle on Tormenta in a zoomed in video filmed from across the park atop the Oil Derrick. I watched it three times and could never see it even when he slowed it down and drew a circle and arrows around it.

I've always had a few theories myself...

1. Material changes, such as the running rail quality mentioned previously. If the material was swapped to a lesser quality (imported cold rolled to hot extruded pipe) to reduce cost, the diameter tolerance is not as good, material properties are changed (hardness, tensile strength) and the surface finish is not as good (pitting, high/low spots), etc... That could cause the wheels to hunt a bit more, ride a bit 'rougher'. Think of driving on a super smooth, freshly paved road versus one that has a bit of wear on it. From a quick look, looks like cold rolled pipe might around 20-30% more expensive in the same diameter/schedule, not including import costs if it was coming from Europe.

2a. Structural design optimizations to reduce cost... Making the track take more structural load, by which it would be 'stronger' by design with deeper spines to resist bending, thicker materials, etc... To allow higher stresses and be able to transfer more load into the structure across larger spans to reduce the amount of foundations, columns, etc... A good example is Fury's lift structure compared to say Raging Bull, Apollo's Chariot, etc... Now, I assume if the structure itself is changed to some degree, either being more rigid or flexible overall because of these changes, that would probably has some type of effect with how the structure absorbs the energy from the train which you feel as a rider especially over bolted joints which might be higher stress now compared to the past designs.

2b. Typically columns and the connection to the footer itself are adjusted/shimmed to make up for tolerance stack in the foundation work, land settling and track assembly. With less supports to make these adjustments, the bolted connections of the track between larger spans would become a bit more critical. If your spanning 4 connected track segments across two column/foundation connection points (with the two center track pieces not supported by a column), I would think you have less adjustment and the bolted connections between the track pieces become more critical to alignment. If things are slightly off on either end and you have to make the track fit by brute force, you may get some misalignment at the joint in a very slight way that can cause a bit of chatter... Which could be sanded/smoothened out, but that might cause a low spot in the joint that doesn't help much in terms of tracking.

3. Train modifications to reduce weight... Kind of relating the previous... With lighter trains, you reduce stress on the structure. A simple example is a 5,000lb train at 4.5G is putting 22,500lb of load into the structure, which have to take said load, with safety factors accordingly (let's say a 3x FOS), requiring the structure to take 67,500lb at some point/column. By reducing the train weight by 5% down to 4,750lb, you reduce, with the FOS, the structure needing to handle 64,125lb. Then with moment arms and other fun things, that can stack up. But I'm no structural engineer, so maybe it's just noise and super minor changes.

Now, it seems pretty clear that it's probably the track in some way, but might not be the fault of Clermont being my point. It could be material changes by B&M, in which Clermont just builds pieces to print of whatever material, thickness and tolerance is specified. It just doesn't seem likely that it's on the fabricator, who has been making track for B&M for decades, to all of a sudden not be able to make smooth tracks... It could be as simple as B&M reducing a tolerance (to save cost) on the profile of a piece of track from one end to another by 0.05 of an inch, but by doing so, Clermont might have less quality rejections and rework in the inspection phase, therefor they are able to reduce costs for B&M. But honestly, I would think if that were the case, they would have reversed that quickly once the new rides start showing more issues.

But hey, if they do indeed have someone else make the track going forward (Energylandia seems to be the next new B&M?) we will know pretty quick I suppose. Although there is a chance if manufacturing is indeed happening in Europe, if those 'special sauce' running rails from Italy or wherever they were from are available at much better costs because a lack of import costs and transportation, maybe they are able to go back to what they used to do material wise (if they were indeed changed at some point) and still remain more competitive price wise.

Edit: Lastly, looking at some new video of the new SFOT dive at a slower speed where the train coming out of the immelman type element into the MCBR... As soon as the train hits the bolted joint in the track, you clearly see row 2 and 3 shimmy side to side, in what appears to be at both ends of a specific piece of track. You can see (and hear) a bit of hunting going into the first immelman as well, at least from the footage. But time will tell once it actually opens and we hear people complaining (or not).

Those are solid theories, Steve, and none of them really point to an issue with Clermont, specifically. I'm reminded of a recent video that Grady from Practical Engineering posted with regard to how "washboarding" happens with roads. It's hard to translate that to steel unless it comes down to material or alloy composition, which also wouldn't implicate the fabricator.

I'm just not confident that the fabricator is suddenly doing something different. It wouldn't make sense. Again, decades of experience suggest that they're pretty damn good at what they do.

I stumbled upon a reply on FB, in which someone said this:

"To me honest. There was never a contract. B&M just did business there. After previous managers making dumb decisions did the plug get pulled. We all got laid off in April"

Their profile picture had them with unpainted, newly welded track, within Clermont. Assuming a welder. So seems pretty legit at least and supporting to the fact they may have closed after all.

Jeff:

Hydra at Dorney felt like ass. But that's, what 15-years-old?

21, sadly.