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Jeff:

but "I drive a thousand miles once a year!" is not at all a logical argument.

It's a reason an electric vehicle won't work where a gas one would. Simple as that. If an electric vehicle fits your needs 99% of the time and a gas one does 100% of the time, then it's completely logical.

If "saving the world" factors into your decision in a meaningful way, the equation might change (and you'll start reasoning with yourself about renting cars while still owning one). But on a straight car vs car level, it's a no-brainer. Pick the one that works for you all the time, not just almost all the time.

Jeff:
You mileage may vary (and by vary I mean it costs twice as much).

That's not the dig you think it is...and that's exactly the disconnect.

Jeff:
I think about "fueling" so infrequently that it's essentially not a concern. No need to find the cheapest station, or stop before or after work.

I'm also not sure this is actually the hassle for most people that you're selling it as. This is how infomercials work.

"Tired of driving around all day after work looking for the cheapest gas? Then sitting in a long line waiting your turn to fuel up? And then freezing in the cold while your standing unprotected in the elements while being forced to fill your own tank with dangerous fire juice?

You need Electric Car™"

But what do I know? I'm in hambone territory. We never even bothered with a rental while the car is being fixed. We've been car-free since Xmas Eve. I couldn't tell you the last time I did suburban **** like go to a Target or Walmart. Easily 9 or 10 months. Maybe a year?

I flat-out do not live like the average knucklehead.

Touchdown:

You would still have to get outside and hook up the charger. Also, you will lengthen your charging session if you keep your car on to keep it heated while you wait.

Only on a road trip. Most days, I would plug it in once I've parked in my garage after I get home. No extra time at all. (My garage is unheated, but that's a me problem, not an EV problem.)

GoBucks89:
One every 18 months is a lot different than 7-8 a year.

Yeah you couldn't pay me to do that.

I, too, have a kid in Wisconsin. It's about a six hour drive, one way. It's 50/50 if I fly or drive---depends on how long I will be there. And no, it is not that much more expensive to fly, because I am not putting those miles on my car. AAA estimates that it is about $0.70/mile, so the round trip driving cost would be about $560 to get to Madison and back. So for a little bit more (flying + renting a car at the destination) I save myself half that time.

It would be a little different if I were not a solo traveler, but I am.

As an aside, this is also a pretty good reason to consider renting a car for road trips even if you own a conventional gas car. You still have to pay for gas, but you don't have to pay any of the other costs-per-mile of driving. That can earn back the cost of the rental depending on how much of your trip is actively on the road.

Another aside: I've lived in a bunch of different places---ranging from ten acres in a place where that was considered a small lot, on down to a condo in buildings of eight units each, plus a lot of the options in between those two.

Looking back on it, having extra land I owned contributed much less to my quality of life than living near public open spaces like parks and woodlands. Conversely, I was much happier living in a close-knit neighborhood (probably a required side-effect of small lots, condos, etc.) than living some place with lots of "privacy." That's true even with the neighbor that sometimes likes to crank tunes.

Both of those worked out exactly backward from what I expected. Before I had done it all, I would have told you that more space and privacy would have made me happier. It didn't.

Brian Noble:

As an aside, this is also a pretty good reason to consider renting a car for road trips even if you own a conventional gas car. You still have to pay for gas, but you don't have to pay any of the other costs-per-mile of driving. That can earn back the cost of the rental depending on how much of your trip is actively on the road.

I have been living by and preaching that for years. Why would I want to put 1200-1500 miles on my vehicle on vacation when I can rent a much newer/nicer vehicle for a lot less than the equivalent cost of driving mine? And another little secret - rent a mini-van. My experience is that renting a mini-van is always less expensive than renting an SUV (unless you want to drive the tiny SUV). And I am willing to bet that the minivan will get better MPG and have a better ride than the SUV.

Really? I've had the opposite experience. When we go on vacation there's 4 of us plus a big suitcase each, so I need a bigger vehicle.

We're going in a couple weeks (that's why this is fresh in my mind.) A minivan was well over $1000 for 8 days. I got a Pathfinder for $650.

And just so I can play both sides here, although I would consider buying an electric car, there's no way in hell I'm renting one and dealing with that on vacation.

Part of the reason I own my traverse is to be comfortable on the road, and drive down some fun roads in the mountains. If you aren’t going to drive your car what’s the point of owning one? Not to mention, trips put on “highway miles” that are far gentler on the engine and can actually make it run better (especially if you use cruise.)

You fly out of Detroit, right? If so, you have direct flights to Madison. From Cleveland we either stop in Chicago or Detroit. Connecting flights change the calculus for me. And I am typically working the day we leave (trips to CT too) so flexibility of departure time matters that isn't there with flights. Sometimes my kids drive to Chicago and fly from there rather than leaving from Madison and having connecting flights. $0.70/miles is too high for my car. And its my wife and I which also changes the fly/drive calculus.

AAA calculator is interesting. Though it assumes 5 years of ownership. Maybe that's an average? Average vehicle on the road today has been on the road for about 12 years. Depreciation costs vary significantly depending on how long you plan to own it. Insurance/license fees are not variable so they won't change if my car sits at home or I drive it. Thinking about cost of recent rental cars on trips, not sure it would make sense to rent versus driving my own vehicle. For what we paid for a one week rental 2 years ago, I could buy 2 sets of tires for my car. Or one set of tires, new brakes and an oil change. Expect cost/benefit analysis depends on what vehicle you own, how long you will own it, how far you typically drive it per year and cost of rentals. Works out in some cases but not in others.

I agree in terms of access to parks/woodlands. But to me, unless I can walk there, short distance drives do not make much of a difference. Right now I am 15-20 minutes away from a national park, multiple metro parks, 100 miles of towpath for biking and ski areas. If I could walk to any of them, it would be a further drive to the others. And longer commutes to work for wife and me. Balance that works for us.

We have neighbors. Just not in a fish bowl.

Ultimately, there is a reason there are different flavors of ice cream, as they say. Think that has been the point that people have been making over the past couple of pages here. Seems to be obvious to me but some are contesting. Interesting to me that is the case but being around here a long time, guess its not surprising.

Yeah, it's all a straight shot. If I had to connect, flying saves no time, and is more of a hassle.

And the observations about where I've lived were not to suggest that's the "right" answer. But it is something I've been thinking about, and it occurred to me that I was surprised in hindsight.

The mileage estimator does increase the per-mile cost if you drive fewer miles in a year, which accounts for some of the fixed costs you are thinking about. So, it's not a straight-line computation. But still---for a driving-intensive road trip, a rental car is a lot closer to a break-even proposition than it seems at first glance. And going that route I can optimize my vehicle purchase for my daily commute, rather than have something that also is a great fit for a long distance trip.

That is crazy kpjb! Upcoming 7 day minivan rental at Key West for $457 tax/title/out the door. Chevy Eqiunox = $493. And bigger SUVs are even more. I don't remember the last time I saw an SUV for less than a minivan. And the minivan will can easily hold 4 people and 4+ big suitcases as we have proven several times.

Touchdown:

If you aren’t going to drive your car what’s the point of owning one? Not to mention, trips put on “highway miles”

I drive my car plenty for non-vacation trips. Its just for long trips that I rent. And while the miles may be easier, still wear and tear that I don't want on my car. And an added bonus - if the rental conks out on vacation I get a replacement with one phone call. If my car conks out on vacation it becomes a not fun vacation.

GoBucks89:

Friends who live in what are very walkable communities end of driving pretty much everywhere they do (I think its easy to find excuses: its cold, its raining, I am in a hurry, etc).

I know that people live like this. Most of my family do! I don't really get it, and to me the tradeoffs look really lousy, but who am I to say?

I will just say, most people I know have never lived in a place where hopping in a car to go the corner isn't a viable choice. But after a while of living that way, for me, NOT being able to walk to the corner store seems horrifying.

But ultimately, nearest store is about 2 miles from my house and its a $$ store. So we drive pretty much everywhere.

I have no idea how big the lots in your neighborhood are, but that mostly seems like a zoning and development choice to me. It would be perfectly easy to put a CVS at one end of your street and a Panera at the other. I don't understand why that kind of mixed development, even in places with 1/2 acre lots, isn't pursued more often. It just seems like SOME number of people would want it.

What I really don't understand is this:

A development just outside Columbus's outerbelt. Leaving aside the name (do you want to live in a volcanic crater?) - there's literally a dozen strip malls that you could see from your windows. Would you not want to be able to go downstairs to a mini-grocery and buy beer and cheez doodles, instead of getting in your car and driving on the hell highway that is US 23? Or get your morning coffee? Or - whatever?

ETA: I just realized there are six US flags in front of that building.

It seems most everyone else here arguing for either side finds owning a vehicle a necessary evil, and the more conveniences that car provides, the better. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel like Jeff's first comment that kind of started this whole discussion--"Once you go electric, you'll never go back"--completely ignores one of the most basic fundamentals about being human: we like different s**t.

I think I'm so far outside the realm of normal drivers that nothing I say to argue against or defend either side matters. I don't want an EV because....I just don't. All the arguments about thousand+ mile trips and charging times and environment impact? I don't care. Getting gas doesn't bother me, I never look for cheaper gas unless I'm destitute, and I haven't been in that position in years (this might change if I still don't have a job by the time my severance runs out). And getting gas when it's cold? I sit in the heated car while it's filling. It's an average of what, 30, maybe 40 seconds outside to start the pump and return the nozzle?

I like engine noise. I love shifting gears (although my daily driver has been an automatic for the last couple years because my wife doesn't drive manual). I like working on my cars, and as I mentioned earlier, the less tech, the better.

I just love to drive, and living without a car would be hell for me, but then again so would living in the city. I used to commute just over an hour one-way to/from work and it definitely took its toll at times, but I still enjoyed driving. I've worked at home since March of 2020, and while I absolutely love the convenience and the environment, I actually find myself missing my commute at times. If I haven't had to leave the house in a day or two, I actually look for excuses to go...anywhere...just so I can drive. In the summer I throw the top down in the "fun" car and drive around aimlessly. It's my happy place.

But I'd probably own an EV if I had a collection like Jay Leno or something.

It would be perfectly easy to put a CVS at one end of your street and a Panera at the other.

It wouldn't really work in my development. But lets say it would. I would go from having to drive everywhere to having to drive everywhere other than Come Visit Satan (my wife as a former pharmacist would be bummed if I didn't say that) and an over-priced, mediocre sandwich shop. I don't really see that as much of a difference (much less an improvement). Indeed, across the street from the $$ store was a Wrong Aid (also from my wife--pharmacists make attorneys appear to be a happy/well adjusted group) that was right on my to/from work. I stopped there a couple times a month going to/coming home from work. Could have walked there if it was closer but stopping before/after work was easier/more convenient. And now the store is closed and the building has been empty for several years.

Retail is tough right now in a lot of places. When my kids were little we went to Target just about every week. Now other than once a week at a grocery store, we rarely go shopping anywhere. Target/Walmart/Amazon will deliver just about anything. Within 2 days (and often within hours). Would I feel better if I could walk more places? Think I would be indifferent. And no interest in walking to the grocery store (and walking back home with groceries). But other people feel differently. Do you and others will do the same.

GoBucks89:

Winter in NE Ohio has become my favorite season as I have gotten older. This winter has been great.

OK, I gotta bite: Can you say what you love about this NE Ohio winter? Not being ironic at all; I'd like to hear your take.

The number of times I've nearly wiped out walking on icy parking lots in the last month has been enough to make me want to move south...

Lord Gonchar:

If an electric vehicle fits your needs 99% of the time and a gas one does 100% of the time, then it's completely logical.

Yes, this. It's not anymore complicated than that.

Another... well, maybe not absolute requirement, but a very high priority for us was a third row, primarily for the ability to carry our kids and their friends occasionally, but also for the cargo capacity, since we use this vehicle for camping trips, and those trips tend to require a substantial amount of gear. And not only do large electric SUVs suffer from diminishing returns in terms of range, they also tend to cost a small fortune. A Kia EV9 would fit our needs in terms of seating and cargo space, but its range is not great (<300 mi) and it costs $60,000. Hard pass.

Brian Noble:

I tend to drive cars into the ground, but the one I have now is 12 years old...

GoBucks89:

And I drive my cars into the ground as well. Current one is 13 years old and I plan to get another 5 years out of it...

Same. We just replaced my Wife's 17 year old Saturn after the transmission died, and were fine with that, having gotten 13+ years out of it ourselves (we don't buy new). And my Pontiac will be old enough to vote next year, assuming it makes it that long.

In terms of winter, I think its a question of whether there are things you like to do outside in the snow/cold or if the snow/cold are something you deal with to get to something you like to do inside. I ski (downhill and cross country). Sled (great sledding hill in nearby park though not often now that my kids are grown). Hike (have a dog that is energized by cold/snow). 40 minute walks with her around the neighborhood and 3 mile hikes in a nearby park. Wife will hike but not ski. Love taking pics of nature. Love to hear the crunch of the snow under my feet on really cold days. This winter has been fantastic for all of that. Many recently have not been.

I have always been active outside in the winter. Of the sliding devices I have in my attic, still have Flexible Flyer I used as a kid which I hope someday to share with my grandkids. My dad downhill skied with my kids until his late 70s and cross country skied until his mid 80s. Looking to ice sail in Madison if I can get my son or his wife to go with me. Have sailed Lake Erie for 5 decades at this point so boating on the ice is something I want to try. Have a winter trip to Yellowstone in the works (but my wife is a hard pass on that so lining up someone else to join me).

In terms of aesthetics, what typically happens in winter is we get snow then it gets warmer and much of it melts leaving behind gray/brown snow piles which are ugly. We haven't that that until this week. And to me the worst weather is cold and rain (which is why spring is my least favorite season though I really like having 4 distinct seasons which bring with them anticipation and a certain sense of urgency). Know people who when its in the upper 30s and raining say its better than if it was snowing. But you can't really do anything outside when its cold and rainy. If its colder and snowing instead, there are a lot of things you can do outside (sign going up one of the lifts at local ski area says if it were any warming, you would be water skiing). And we have also had several days (like today) where its been cold with blue skies and sun. Nice to be outside on days like that. Walking. Skiing. Clearing snow from the driveway/sidewalks.

As for ice, I think it helps if you have a little comfort sliding a little. Same is true of driving in the snow (which I like to do and this year with the extended cold and road salt shortages, more roads have been snow covered longer than in most winters). And on sheets of ice, I typically ice skate across them which to me is more secure than walking across them.

Totally understand people are different. And a lot of people do not like winter. Different flavors of ice cream again.

Touchdown:

If you aren’t going to drive your car what’s the point of owning one?

With you there. I love driving. Summer with the music up and sunroof open, winter with the snow tires on so I can pass all the stranded trucks on my way around. Love it all.

Sorry, B2B post, should've read through before the last one.

Anywho,

Vater:

I like engine noise. I love shifting gears (although my daily driver has been an automatic for the last couple years because my wife doesn't drive manual).

I'll add that I like the smell of gas. And, boooooooooo!

I argued for buying a beater stick so we could teach the kids to drive one without being upset when they burned out the clutch. I was unsuccessful, and neither can drive manual AFAIK.

In fairness, I haven't driven one regularly since the late 80s. A GMC pickup with three on the tree, so not exactly "fun", but not not fun either.

birdhombre:

The number of times I've nearly wiped out walking on icy parking lots in the last month has been enough to make me want to move south...

GoBucks89:
As for ice, I think it helps if you have a little comfort sliding a little.

Man, I couldn't wait to do this (skooch ahead to 1:12 if you just want the sheets of ice.):

Brian Noble:

A GMC pickup with three on the tree

I learned to drive a stick as a teenager. My first car, an orange 3 speed chevette, cemented my ability to drive a stick. Even drove a 24' stick Uhaul. All was good until I encountered the 3 on the tree in the neighbors old truck. I never did get the hang of that.