Worlds of Fun, Valleyfair! and Cedar Point....

Wednesday, January 24, 2001 2:13 PM
Hi, most people come with a one point scheme of things, meaning they are on one side looking out. I of course come from a Worlds of Fun sided argument, though I have the capacity of course to think outside of the Worlds of Fun shaped box :)
there has been a lot of discussion going around on the UNWOF board about 2002, since it is our 30th anniversary year (I know valleyfair got screwed and everything) so everybody of course thinks where getting some big coaster. Of course, being around for awhile im not QUITE that delusional. :) I also know that SFMM is one coaster ahead in the overall coaster count of parks, and because of that Cedar Point has been "dethroned" so to speak from the coaster kingdom throne. Now, what I think Cedar Fair should do and what it is going to happen are two different things, BUT I think Worlds of Fun and ESPECIALLY poor Valleyfair have been completely left out in the cold for three years, our attendance is sliding and im sure Valleyfair's is as well. I really believe that Cedar Point is not going to die for one year without a gigantic coaster addition heck they just got Millinium Force. Even if they wanted to stay in the coaster race they could always add a coaster under 20 million (how about a boomerang anybody?! :) )
I think Cedar Fair should spend a larger portion then usual on their two failing parks to bring them back up, bring attendance up and bring cash back into the park. Of course I believe they should continue this plan over several years, that would raise attendance up SEVERAL figures (say from 1 million to 1.4 million) and bring in much larger revenues for Cedar Fair but ... lets be realistic here. I just want to know what all the people outside of our Worlds of Fun enclave think. :)

Peace Love and Happiness <爀㸀 㰀戀爀㸀䨀攀渀渀椀昀攀爀 䰀漀瘀攀猀攀攀 㰀戀爀㸀猀㈀㄀㄀㔀㈀㐀䀀洀愀椀氀⸀渀眀洀椀猀猀漀甀爀椀⸀攀搀甀
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Wednesday, January 24, 2001 2:26 PM
I actually think it would be very wise to pour a little money into these lesser known parks. People are going to Cedar Point no matter what, if they get a new coaster or not. Heck, I want to drive out there all the way from so cal. to visit this famous park. However, making these other lesser known parks a little more known would be a great move, simply because more people would want to travel to them. Look at what it did for Knott's. One CCI puts them on many must visit lists, whereas most enthusiasts used to pass that park up in the past. Cedar Fair should add at least one coaster to each, and while they're at it, how about an intamin hyper for knotts!? :)
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Wednesday, January 24, 2001 5:18 PM
Well i am not exactly looking from the outside but i tend to agree with you jenn. I think WOF and valleyfair will be lucky if they get a major coaster next year. My reasoning is withsaviormachine I believe the money should be spread around to make all of their parks great. But you see what happened when MF was installed. WOF was lucky to get a Boomerang. I would have much rather have seen CP and WOF both get nice coasters instead of the one sided MF-Boomerang. And I really think that Dorney is lucky that the Mountain didn't announce before talon was started. Or else it may have ended up being a floorless at CP. But look up maybe WOF will get that invert next year, An SLC and CP will get the dueling S&S towers.
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#1 Steel-Incredible Hulk
#1 Wood--Timber Wolf
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Wednesday, January 24, 2001 5:32 PM
From what I understand, although Cedar Fair is indeed a partnership, the only way a park can get a new major ride is by raising the money itself. Meaning, Talon went to Dorney because Dorney could pay for it.

Is this correct?

If it is, then you can't really accuse CF of favoritism...

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Matt Lynch
Co-Webmaster, Kennywood Boulevard
http://kennywood.coasterbuzz.com
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Wednesday, January 24, 2001 6:08 PM
Yes, Cedar Fair parks operate as individual business units, and that's right from the horse's mouth (see our interview with Dick Kinzel from IAAPA). This is the opposite of how Six Flags appears to operate, where bursts of capital improvement are made to select parks.

What it all comes down to is how much money a park can generate from a new attraction within a certain amount of time. That's based on the market, the cost of the ride, the economy, per capita in-park spending, etc. Remember, the park GM and the CEO need to sell the board on whatever they want to do. Since the board makes a healthy sum from dividends, it matters a whole lot to them (and in turn unit holders) how quickly they can get a return on the investment.

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Jeff
Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
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Wednesday, January 24, 2001 7:44 PM
Actually, that sounds pretty fair.
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 1:43 AM
I agree that Worlds of Fun has gotten the shaft over the last couple of seasons, but where do you think these revenues it is generating are going? Well, if you don't see new rides and additions, you will soon. Maybe the park is saving up for an all star attraction. I know that Cedarfair had a long period with dorney when all we got was just about nothing. It is hard to be excited about some of Dorneys new attractions over the years, how exactly do you market the swan boats, or monster. All I am saying is give it time. You will get your coaster, and believe me you will be pleased with it. I personally think it sounds like you have a grudge against Cedarpoint, but guess what? They are a world class resort, in a much denser market, and have attendence which is well over Worlds of Fun. You are right, they will get their new coaster(s), but it is rightly deserved. Now as for your comments about WoF and Valleyfair! suffering, I am not sure about WoF, but Valleyfair just came off a record season. People up their are pleased with there new ride every couple years. I have heard that the two million or so they recieve every year for improvements has made the park beautiful. I am beginning to ramble, but in conclusion:
1.) I feel bad for Worlds of Fun.
2.) I have a feeling you will see drastic changes there within the next couple of seasons.
3.) Valleyfair! is doing fine.
4.) You are still looking through that WoF heart shaped box. *** This post was edited by EYELIKEVAG on 1/25/2001. ***
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 3:05 AM
WOF will eventually get a new world class coaster. A CCI was going to be built for 2001 but the park changed its mind for whatever reason. Maybe the park is saving up for something really special instead after getting an off the shelf coaster like BoomerRang.
The expectations of coaster enthusiasts, I feel, has gotten too high in the last couple of years. We now feel that parks should put in a world class coaster every year or two because of CP, SFMM and SFO. Those parks are not the norm though, they are exceptions. Parks have to add more than just coasters and WOF is adding Camp Snoopy for the family park goers which hopefully will increase attendance which will increase revenue which will one year go to building a CCI or B&M or Arrow 4th dimension, etc, and please the coaster crowds. Until then be happy with the T-Wolf, Mamba, and other great rides WOF has. My home park is Silver Dollar City and look how long we had to wait before we got Buzzsaw Falls and Wildfire after they built Thunderation in '93! :)
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 4:16 AM

Jennifer Lovesee said:
" I think Worlds of Fun and ESPECIALLY poor Valleyfair have been completely left out in the cold for three years, our attendance is sliding and im sure Valleyfair's is as well."


Here we go again. Swoosh/DTN8TR/Dhollon used to do the same thing...paint VF with the same brush as WoF without pausing to read any facts on the matter.

Don't get me wrong--I really like you WOFFA folk, but let me explain why you can't call VF poor:

1) VF didn't simply get the tallest combo PT in the CF chain last year....they also got 5 kiddie rides. What WoF is 'adding' this year, VF already got last year.

2) When VF built WT, it wasn't the only addition that year, either. They got a 180-foot SkyCoaster to boot.

3) The year after WT, VF didn't get some other park's hand-me-down gokarts....they got a Chaos, built a Coasters and rebuilt the entrance plaza.

4) Remember that CF runs *two* parks in the Twin Cities (the second being KCS-MOA). When VF doesn't get a ride, that generally means it's the mall's turn.

5) Between VF and KCS-MOA, the Twin Cities area has averaged 1.2 new mechanical rides per year since 1996, provided you don't count the kiddie rides. If you count them, the number grows to 2.4 per year--and that still doesn't count the SkyCoaster. I'll provide a list if you want it.

6) VF had the highest attendance increase (6%) of all the CF family last year--and this was in spite of bad weather (any storm front that hits CP rolls through VF country two days prior). Read for yourself:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010103/oh_cedar_f_2.html/

7) Last but not least, VF serves a larger market than WoF -- at least a million people more. Again, please read this from Cedar Fair itself:

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Thursday, January 25, 2001 4:56 AM
VF is my home park. While we're pleased with the whole addition of the Power Tower and we're not really complaining about no coaster this year. (We've learned to wait at least 3 years before anything big happens.)

Your point that if VF doesn't get anything the mall usually does. Normally, that's a good statement, but I don't think Camp Snoopy is getting anything this year either. (Where the heck are they going to put anything?)

VF did have a 6% boost in attendance, and I'm pretty happy about that. I'm hoping this means maybe we can get an invert in 2002 if VF is saving up there pennies this year for future capitol expansion.

Oh, and what were all these kiddie rides we supposedly got? We got rid of 5 kiddie rides in 2000, but I don't think we got 5 more. (PT is now standing where the old Kiddie Playland stood by our Corkscrew.)
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Randy Hutchinson
You build it, I'll ride it...eventually
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:08 AM
I think the other major issue here is market competition. WOF has no other local competition while VF is competing against itself with Knots Camp Snoopy. On the other hand as someone else on this board put it, with CP's national reputation its CP vs. the world. With SFMM's upcoming dethronement of CP's coaster record and CP's local competition (SFO and PKI), I don't think anyone should be surprised that CP will receive additional attractions. Similarly Dorney in the lucrative but heavily competitive NY-Philadelphia market (with SFGAD and Hershey as competitors) will probably be required to build new rides in order to improve and/or maintain its market share. (Although I don't see Dorney trying to become SFGAD west- but rather add a major attraction every few years while playing up their traditional park atmosphere.) Thus, with the recent improvements at SFGAD (including 2001's Nitro) and Hershey, I think Dorney would have built Nitro despite SFMM's announcement.

Amusement parks are in the business of making money. While a major attraction at WOF and/or VF would certainly boost attendance- building a new attraction at CP and to a lesser extent Dorney and KBF would probably be more beneficial to CF because it would draw people away from their competitors. Additionally, if CF neglects to build new attractions at CP, Dorney or KBF people at those markets will stop going to those parks but rather go to CF's competitors. If CF doesn't build new attractions at VF or WOF their attendance will suffer somewhat but many will still go because there are few alternatives.
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:09 AM

Coastaplaya said: "Here we go again. Swoosh/DTN8TR/Dhollon used to do the same thing...paint VF with the same brush as WoF without pausing to read any facts on the matter."




No I don't pity you guys at all. What I am ashamed of is that MY Name(s) are in the first sentence of your post. :)

As for VF! I WOULD be ashamed that that was ALL that I got during that period. Considering your population is SO much greater than KCMetro area, you guys really are getting the bum end of the deal. 'Specially having to wait so long to get an S&S tower ride.

Ok enough bashing. I plan on visiting VF! first hand this summer and I will see how "bad off" the park really is ;) I have a feeling that WOF and VF are in the same boat, but if not I will be pleasantly surprised.

Ok enough rambling, here's my points

1. Coastaplaya, don't mock me
2. WOF is not as bad off as people portray it
3. VF is doing just fine
4. WOF has a larger pop to draw from then people credit it
5. I didn't get enough sleep last night

Live Long and Coaster!

-----------WILDFIRE--------------
Scorching the Competition in 2001
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 6:12 AM

Dustijn Hollon said:

As for VF! I WOULD be ashamed that that was ALL that I got during that period. Considering your population is SO much greater than KCMetro area, you guys really are getting the bum end of the deal. 'Specially having to wait so long to get an S&S tower ride.

2. WOF is not as bad off as people portray it
3. VF is doing just fine"


VF's target market is only 8 million peeps-not 20-35 million like the larger parks in the chain. So the expansion $$$ spent are commensurate to the market size IMO. As far as the PT delay, rumors were afoot since '98.....but VF wanted a 300-foot (total height) tower and had to fight the FAA. They wound up shortening the decorative arches 25 feet. I'd rather wait for a premium ride than get a shorter one without a Turbo Drop any day.

What did I say that mocked you? I mentioned that you didn't read stuff 'cause you (or was that Swoosh? ;)) used to post that VF was landlocked, was at the bottom of the capital totem pole, etc. on URC. I'd reply with links to sources proving otherwise, but you'd say the same thing a month later. That's not mockery.

But the REAL deal here -- as you said in points 2 and 3 -- is that neither park is doing all that bad.

-CPlaya

PS to Randy Hutchinson: The five VF kiddie rides were the Frog Hopper, Bumble Bees, Lil' Guppy, Convoy and Busy Boats. All were erected in Half-Pint Park except Bumble Bees, which was close to the High Roller.

The former Tot Town was more of a playground (think CP's Kid Arthur's court) than anything else. It only had a tiny Ferris wheel and a boat ride. The Bubble Tubs were moved to Half-Pint park and actually circles two of the Corkscrew's support columns.

But they did lose the hideous, chocolate brown Road Hog, which was basically a bunch of little cars, horsies, etc. stuck to a second-h渀搀 挀愀爀漀甀猀攀氀 琀甀爀渀琀愀戀氀攀⸀  吀栀椀渀欀椀渀最 漀昀 椀琀 猀琀椀氀氀 洀愀欀攀猀 洀攀 挀爀椀渀最攀⸀  吀栀愀琀✀猀 愀 瀀氀甀猀 椀渀猀琀攀愀搀 漀昀 愀 洀椀渀甀猀 㰀椀洀最 猀爀挀㴀∀⼀昀漀爀甀洀猀⼀椀洀愀最攀猀⼀猀洀椀氀攀⸀最椀昀∀ 戀漀爀搀攀爀㴀∀ ∀㸀⸀
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 7:23 AM
Thanks for the clarification Playa. I still honestly believe that VF is saving its money and is planning to build an invert 2002, 2003. I do think that Dustin and Playa are still missing out on what Jeff said. CF isn't distributing the money like Six Flags does. Each CF park operates like its own independent park. The park itself controls what it gets or not.

That being said, I'm sure CF has input on what goes in, but ultimately I think its up to each individual park, and how much money they have in the bank.

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Randy Hutchinson
You build it, I'll ride it...eventually
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 10:39 AM

CPlaya said: What did I say that mocked you? I mentioned that you didn't read stuff 'cause you (or was that Swoosh? ) used to post that VF was landlocked, was at the bottom of the capital totem pole, etc. on URC. I'd reply with links to sources proving otherwise, but you'd say the same thing a month later. That's not mockery.


To that I give you a big strawberry! :p

Yes I know the parks aren't all that bad off, but you know we HAVE to gripe about SOMETHING during the off season, or else we'll all get bored!
LOL!

Take care CPlaya, you know I'm just joking with you.

Swoosh!!!

-----------WILDFIRE--------------
Scorching the Competition in 2001
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 12:20 PM
No complaining about Knott's from me. CF is doing a terrific job with the park. And I'm patient enough to realize that 2002 will probably bring one of the best steel coasters in the US, to go with the best wooden coaster in the CF chain. To that, I am forever grateful to DCA and SFMM.

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Thank you Disney, thank you...
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 1:36 PM

Dustijn Hollon said:

Yes I know the parks aren't all that bad off, but you know we HAVE to gripe about SOMETHING during the off season, or else we'll all get bored!
LOL!

Take care CPlaya, you know I'm just joking with you.



Actually, you have good reason to be ticked off...it doesn't look like WoF's CS includes a Zamperla Whip.

The Whip (aka Peanuts 500) is one of the best excuses to build a Camp Snoopy. But don't take my word for it...ask 3-year old CoastaMidget.

Now you can rightfully be PO'ed. :)

-CPlaya
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 6:25 PM
I don't know what you guys must think about our Camp Snooy but where only getting two new kiddie rides (sorry "family" rides), no Woodstock express coaster (there renaming our 10 year old zamperla kiddie train ride) and no cheap flat ride for the adults. I expect this season we will drop below 1 million in attendance. This doesnt sound good for the future of WOF... However, CF im sure isnt going to keep letting us sink until WOF closes its doors forever. Please may WOF not follow in the footsteps of atleast 5 other KC parks (yes there have been THAT many). If anybody is even interested in KC's amusement park history there is a website that I worked on for a little while, that pretty much sucks, but gives a little information on some of the parks (there where many more), at http://www.worldsoffun.org/kcparks

Jennifer Lovesee *** This post was edited by Jennifer Lovesee on 1/25/2001. ***
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Thursday, January 25, 2001 7:03 PM
I think that was a PLUG if I have ever read one.
:)

Love Dustijn

-----------WILDFIRE--------------
Scorching the Competition in 2001
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