Women dies after riding Perilous Plunge at Knott's

Well, these posts say a lot for the people who post on this board.  They immediately jump on here and say it was the riders fault, oh one of our precious thrill rides could not have had a malfunction or design flaw, could it?

Remember is was Intamin who designed the flight commander at Kings Island the the drunk girl fell out of (design flaw).

Maybe some of these people on here who value thrill rides more than people's lives should get the facts before they go making posts about what happened. 

These posts are sickening.

Here come the OTSRs...

Most of the speculation at this point is pretty pointless. But I think there are some details I can add...

1. Of all the (hundreds of) rides I have ridden, the only ones which have seat belt buckles that cannot be unfastened during the ride and which are rider-releasable at the end of the ride are simulators, and X-Flight. There are a few which have belts which require some kind of key to open, but those are even more rare on adult rides. This is, of course, a moot point if the belt was fastened but the rider was gone.

2. I am willing to believe that there is a design flaw with the Intamin seat and lap bar. My first ride on Superman: Ride of Steel at Darien Lake, I noticed that the seating position put my knees lower than my waist, leaving a space large enough to slide through with the lap bar down. This is why the ride has seat belts! I also noticed that Milennium Force does not have this same problem; I think the seat benches are raised slightly in front for precisely this reason.

3. Another difficulty with the Intamin seat design has to do with the particular seat belt used, at least on Millennium Force. The belting is thicker than most seat belt webbing, and positively locks into position when the belt is fastened. Once fastened, it is extremely difficult to adjust the belt, even to tighten it. If the victim was a smaller rider, she could have had the belt loose enough to slide out of it.

It's all speculation on my part, of course. But in the absence of details, what else can we do?

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Wow Dave, you do so much of a better job explaining things than I do.
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What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. That is the entire law; all the rest is commentary. -The Talmud

Super7-Amen!

RideMan- thank you.. you are very bright! and very helpful with your explanations..

RideMan said: " I am willing to believe that there is a design flaw with the Intamin seat and lap bar. My first ride on Superman:
Ride of Steel at Darien Lake, I noticed that the seating position put my knees lower than my waist, leaving a space large enough to slide through with the lap bar down. This is why the ride has seat belts! I also noticed that Milennium Force does not have this same problem; I think the seat benches are raised slightly in front for precisely this reason."

And this is what I said many moons ago when Jeff and I were discussing the Intamin hypers. I've long alleged that I believe that I could escape from S:ROS @ SFA with only mild difficulty (never tried of course). I didnt realize that Millie was much different (other than the headrests/raised seatbacks).

Now I'm not as quick to agree with the seatbelt thickness thing as I have been able to fairly easily adjust the belt after it was latched (an op on S:ROS made me). And I've seen it done quite quickly on Millie too (an op did it to GregLeg for no apparent reason).

Now I really dont know what happened on this ride. But methinks that the park/manufactuer is going to be VERY unhappy soon...
lata,
jeremy
--who risked his life by braving TWO Intamin rides yesterday, including a water ride...

...And I noticed that the Intamin ride I rode yesterday has had a second, between-the-legs safety belt added to its shoulder bar.

For me to get out of S:ROS at Darien Lake would be almost as simple as just standing up if the safety belt weren't there. Millennium Force feels more secure; I don't know if the floor is higher, or if the seat is tipped back a little more, or if there is something else...but SOMETHING is different about it, and in any seat my knees are typically higher than the bottom of the lap bar, so I literally wrap around the bar. The question is, how is Plunge designed?

Also, I wonder about the seat belt attachment point. In a situation where you are protecting against forward motion (in an automobile, for example) it actually makes sense to have the belt positioned forward so that it runs straight across the thighs. You see that in aircraft as well, and that's how it works on Millennium Force. But I wonder if in this case a more typical mounting position at the back of the seat might be more effective. Hmmmmmmm.....

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Let me tell you that I was on Mantis at CP and the OTSR completely unlocked during the ride, but was caught by the safety strap. On the next inversion the OTSR click and locked back again. My cousin had his OTSR come undone several clicks on Viper at SFMM before returning itself to a locked position. It is entirely possible that the lapbar disengaged and returned to a locked position after the rider is ejected. The safety belt, however, must have been undone or the rider sat atop the belt. I am pretty sure I remember ALL the coasters having seatbelts in addition to lapbars. It is true that the emplyees come by and make sure the lapbar is down and locked, but I rarely see them even look at the seatbelt. Even if they DO check it, it can be undone after the ride has dispatched, as we did on BlueStreak at CP.  I would be more apt to believe that the rider was not in her seatbelt and the lapbar unlocked momentarily, before returning to a locked position as the flume reached the bottom of the drop, where the gravitational pull is at its greatest.

Another note is that this happened during a "private party", not during regular park hours. Believe me, when you are given special treatment and quite a bit more freedom in such a case, you are more apt to take advantage of such circumstance. It was probably NOT her first ride, and after a few laps on the same ride, you begin to find ways to make it more exciting. "This would be so much better without the seatbelt (see BlueStreak comment)".

This is purely a hypothetical editorial comment on the possibilities that may have surrounded the event. My condolences go out to the family and friends of the victim, as I feel that it was a combined effort of malfunction and human error that contributed to this sad event.
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*** This post was edited by LoadedG on 9/24/2001. ***

My accident happened because of an ongoing failure with the hydraulic restraint system. I do not know how these particular ride's restraints are powered..but I do know a leak in the hydraulic lines can cause the restraint to disengage and then re engage.. and in that split moment you can be thrown from your seat.

An intersting thing to look for will be if the maintence records show any frequent adding of fluid if these rides are hydraulic as well.. a problem with an O ring can cause this type of failure too..you have to tear these segments of rides apart to find the leak..the only way you know you have a leak is if you keep loosing fluids..then its a real chore to rip into the segments and find where the problem lies. But doing that is good maintence.

In my case , there are months of reports (the parks own maintence logs) showing specific seats ( one happened to be the seat I unfortunately ended up in..we didnt know this fact for a year after my incident) that had a problem maintaining optimum pressure ( or ANY pressure at all!) and the methods they chose for repair were to add more fluid .. not find the leak and FIX it...they kept "band-aiding" the problem :(

I am very lucky to be alive even with the medical problems I will have to endure the rest of my life. I have found my way through most of my setbacks...it has not been easy ...infact, at times it has been a true test of my will to live..but I am alive ... unlike this poor lady.

Hearing of this is just too close to home and very sad. I know for the most part rides are safe.. I know in my heart that most of these types of accidents are usually related to maintence and not the manufacturer. In my case it was not a design error...it was simply maintence neglect.

It is good to hear from others brave enough to talk of momentary restraint issues..thank you very much.

These issues ...are the ones I want fixed so desperately...for if this incident was like mine.. it was preventable!!! without limiting the riders enjoyment... or needing any kind of government oversight...I dont want you riders limited from fun and thrills from these new great coasters and thrill rides that are all over.. I just want excellent maintence and attention to these details so that the preventable incidents are prevented. I completely understand you cannot prevent these recent deaths of brain ruptures.. no one could have known unless the deceased had a PET scan immeadiately prior to riding the various rides.. and that is unreasonable...

so please understand me..I am not condemming parks, coasters or thrill rides..I do not think every incident is the fault of the park, operator or manufacturer.. I just want what is reasonable.. good maintenence and problem fixing when there is an ongoing problem with a safety feature of rides.

It will be interesting to see what they find in this lady's case. No matter what comes of this.. I am sorry for her death and for her family's loss.

And PLEASE do not attack me because I am the rare person who was in a ride that had a problem and it resulted in me being permently injured and disabled. I am the rarity ..Ok.. so PLEASE try to NOT attack me.. I am no threat to your future enjoyment of amusement parks. I wish you all wonderful safe riding! Ok?

I have been offline for a while and just read about this.  What a sad story and one that we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions about until all of the details are made available.

To start assuming it was her fault or there fault is just plain ignorant.

Thanks for that BB. Sorry to hear about your accident, but also glad to hear you are ok.

BTW, new word is that initial reports were wrong, and that the seatbelt was not buckled when the boat coasted into the station. Did she unbuckle it, or did she leave the station that way? We may never know that answer to that, but something tells me she didn't jump( she was a 40 year old with three kids), but may have slipped beneath the lap bar while preparing for the drop.

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What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. That is the entire law; all the rest is commentary. -The Talmud

Finally someone else besides me thinks Intamin lap bars are severely flawed! That is why I have come to believe that seat belts have become the primary restraint, because those things can fail as motioned above. That is also why I believe seat belts were added and tested.

Still on Millennium Force they are 2 cases where I think it would be extremely easy to get out. This is why there are the seat belts!

1. An extremely large person rode. The bar would immediately hit there abdominal region and not really come over their legs. SO it would basically be like riding with no lap bar. That is probably why the seat belts are so small to keep large people from riding. Note, I think this is extremely unfair and just shows how bad the seat/bar design  really is.

2. A small person rode. This mainly concerns kids just tall enough to ride. When the bar comes down, the bar itself hits the seat before the yellow padding comes in contact with their body.

I think what would help the design is to have a flanged end (like an arrow mine train lap bar:)) I think it could concentrated the lap bar coming down more on the lap then on the crotch/abdomen (which is why I hate them) and would also let the bar come in contact with the little kids before hitting the seat.

In addition I know the seat belts on MF have become frayed and hard to adjust. I can imagine if it is the same belt and material is used on PP, it would be even more difficult to adjust the belt because of the wetness.

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Save Cheese on a stick! *** This post was edited by Joe E. on 9/24/2001. ***

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BTW, new word is that initial reports were wrong, and that the seatbelt was not buckled when the boat coasted into the station.

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Just further proof that the belt just may be the only thing keeping some people in. I am glad to know that mechanics test ride Millennium Force with just the seat belt or otherwise I don't think It would be very safe for smaller people or if the bar failed. (like in BB's case).

Regardless of who's fault it was, It shows that the lap bars may be flawed if they can't keep people in.

 
 
 

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Save Cheese on a stick! *** This post was edited by Joe E. on 9/24/2001. ***

And anyone that has ever ridden PP can tell you, the ride offers merciless ejector air on the drop. Think third hill of SFDL's Superman and multiply it by three. If that lap bar was up a bit too far, and she manuvered her way from unerneath it...
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What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. That is the entire law; all the rest is commentary. -The Talmud

She would have been caught by the seatbelt, if it was there. I'm not saying she herself maneuver under the bar, I know how easy it is to get ejected from Intamin first drops. I know one that has a real nice one.
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Save Cheese on a stick!

Thank you for your kindness. I have been attacked without mercy over the incident I survived on this site numerous times. I shared my story in hopes of just letting people know that there CAN be problems ... and many posters here attacked me for even suggesting that some of the incidents are NOT rider misconduct.

I am ok, but the issues I live with would break many a strong person.. my annular discs ( the tissue between the vertabrae) are torn at several levels, so I have exposed nerves and fluid leaks out my spine and pools above the small of the back. Annular tears are greatly different from ruptured discs..they present differntly with different symptoms. So what they do for ruptures will have no positive effect on torn discs... That alone leaves me in permenent chronic moderate-severe pain.. for the rest of my life.

I am not always able to walk from the pain and/or nerve failure, leaving my right leg numb and usless... at this time medical science/technology is unable to diminish my pain levels for any decent period of time( they could hook me to a morphine pump and leave me there, but what kind of life is that?). I have to rely on anelgesics for pain control. That is only one of the several severe injuries I sustained nine years ago.

So, I am alive.. but my experince was avoidable and I cant even focus on that fact or I would go postal...maybe now some of you wont attack me so much for just wanting the preventable incidents prevented... and wanting the rides safe so none of you ever know what I have known...or what this mother of three knew..or what her children saw as she fell to her death.

BB: I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly the details of your incident...but wasn't that a shoulder bar mechanism? See, the Intamin lap bar assembly has two hydraulic cylinders on it which lock it into any closed position, and a very heavy return spring. When closed, those bars use a one-way valve. They do not actually lock into position; they can be lowered, they just don't open back up again. The heavy return spring tends to insure that the bar stays where you put it unless you intentionally lower it further. It also insures that if the hydraulic lock should fail, the bar should actually pop open just as it does in the station. The bar itself isn't heavy enough to close itself against the return spring. If the bar was down when the boat returned to the station, it's extremely likely that the bar was down for the entire ride.

DWeaver, the design of the lap bar is such that it is highly unlikely that anybody would slip under it. But the seat position is such that by merely straightening out his legs, many riders could come out fairly easily over the lap bar. In my opinion, this could probably be overcome if the seat had a deeper bench on it, or if the seat bench cushion were tilted back slightly. It wouldn't take much.

Joe: I do think there could be some simple changes to the lap bar that would make it more effective. Recall that on Millennium Force I can't have the bar down against my legs simply because the upright support collides with my crotch before the bar comes down that far. If the support were attached to the front of the bar instead of to the bottom of it, that would make a huge difference. But I think a more critical change would be to modify the seats slightly to insure a proper seated position. Just raising the front edge of the seat a little would be enough to do that...make sure the knees are held above the end of the bar, and it would be almost impossible to come out of the thing.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

the restraint bar in my case was from the floor, and when lowered into position presses firmly into your pelvis..that was the only restraint on the ride..

my understanding is that all the bars in the row are on the same hydralic line..I may be wrong..I am not an engineer..the restraint is operated outside the cabin and under control of the operator..and to release one seat's restraint, all of the other restraints would also disengage..

my understanding is that there was a problem somewhere inbetween the main hydraulic line and the line that controled the bar for the seat I ended up occupying ...

RideMan said

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If the support were attached to the front of the bar instead of to the bottom of it, that would make a huge difference.

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Yeah, that was what I was talking about. Rasing the front end sounds like a better idea.
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Save Cheese on a stick! *** This post was edited by Joe E. on 9/24/2001. ***

From some eyewitnesses who talked to me, the woman who fell out was heavyset.  That's a big factor in the accident.  I can also assure you that it is not the operator's fault.  They are very much distraught at this moment.  The park was quite busy that night, with an estimated 5,000 guests.  We didn't close until 1 AM.  Some guests jumped into the water to try to save her.  It is a very unfortunate incident, in which some people are affected so please refrain from blaming anyone as you don't know the exact details yet.