Wildfire station brakes FAIL!

What I want to know is why B&M use feed motors at all! It's just another mechanical system to break down and add complexity to the ride system. And all the European ride builders (well, except for Vekoma...but they make up for it with the lift on the 700J) do it, and I have never understood it. Here's one situation where we can look to a long history of coaster building.
Angle the station track downhill a few degrees, put real brakes in the station. Gravity is free, and absolutely reliable, and brakes tend to be a bit more reliable than feed motors. Whatever happened to the "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" theory of engineering?
</rant>
--Dave Althoff, Jr.

When a B&M coaster costs upwards of $15 million, I think that "gee-whiz" mechanic complexity is favored over good, dependable gravity :) Gravity makes TOO much sense, right?

I've contemplated that, and my theory is that, generally speaking, you can move and position the train a lot faster than you can with gravity. For example, Raptor enters the station and stops more precisely than Magnum (which I've seen go almost an entire row too far). As for departure, there's a slight pause between the time the brakes release and the train gets up to speed. Again, Raptor moves instantly, Magnum takes a monent. It might only be a second or two, but when they're capacity freaks, every second counts.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

*** This post was edited by Jeff on 12/19/2001. ***

RideMan said:
What I want to know is why B&M use feed motors at all! It's just another mechanical system to break down and add complexity to the ride system. Here's one situation where we can look to a long history of coaster building.
Angle the station track downhill a few degrees, put real brakes in the station. Gravity is free, and absolutely reliable, and brakes tend to be a bit more reliable than feed motors. Whatever happened to the "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" theory of engineering?
</rant>
--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Wow .. I disagree so completely! (Which I hate doing, since Dave is the master of coaster mechanics..)
Positioning a train has got to be so much easier to do with motors ... Think of the B&M hypers, which have contacts on the side of the track (in the station) .. the train must line up _perfectly_, otherwise the computer can't communicate with the lap-bars. This fine positioning would be almost impossible to get right with fin brakes.
Like I said before, it's the lack a spin up/down on these motors which cause the trains to slip ... If they could be duty-cycled, or at least have 2 or 3 speeds, many of the 'wet' problems would be avoided.
As for keeping it simple .. Surely some wires and motors are far more simple (and probably more reliable) than air-lines and brake calipers .. ??
Cam.
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Cameron Silver

Several motors and all the incumbent wiring are probably more complicated than a set of brakes. The big thing though is a set of brakes with spring returns is fail safe. If everything dies, they close and stop the train. Don't ask me why Intamin's magnetic brakes don't have spring returns. I see no good reason why they don't.

Doesn't Arrow do the angled station/turnaround thing on Viper at SFMM? I've ridden it numerous times and there are no feed motors from the brake run to the station (Well I recall there are a few on the station).

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Bow Down to...The Sleeping Smiley!!
--_--zzZZzzz
(tm)

Having seen it on DLP Indiana Jones ( Pinfari track with Intamin trains and ride system! ), one of the reason why a train can slip in the case that its only uses vertical pusher wheel is simple: the tire is so warn is so worn its whould not be fit to go on a car! Its happened once at Indiana Jones: on a day where the pads under the trains ( that makes contact with the wheels ) were wet and a tire in the station was so worn out its had to treads left!, the train slipped right through the station and the first car was out of the station!

With dual pinch types wheels combined with brakes, its the best, even more if its used in combination with gravity! the most reliable through are LIM's in the station and transfer tracks, that way, they can easily go either directions and there are no moving pieces that can break.

Jim Fisher said:
Several motors and all the incumbent wiring are probably more complicated than a set of brakes. The big thing though is a set of brakes with spring returns is fail safe. If everything dies, they close and stop the train.

Well ... when the advancing wheels lose power, they stop running and lock up .. which stops the train.

It's pointless to argue over which is the simpler design, as there is no sold way to prove one over the other. My personal opinion is that the motors are more simple and more reliable simply because they are less mechanical, and therefore need less maintenance and have less points of failure.

Cam.

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Cameron Silver

Regarding the vertical drive tires, I believe B&M phased them out after the 2000 season. This is evident by the fact that some 2000 floorless coasters have vertical tires while others have the pinch wheels. I'm not sure which ones have which, but I want to say Kraken is the only one with the vertical tires (don't quote me on that).

As for why to use motors to advance over gravity, it just seems to fit the B&M mentality. Everything is designed to be precisely controlled...from the advancing onto the chain with the "feeder" to the trim brakes mounted throughout the course. The other benefit, not yet mentioned, is that it allows for trains to be backed up from the station and transfered without having to be cycled. I know that at least Raptor can do this.

Simply put, "B&M is the Cadillac of coaster companies."

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James Draeger
"Legend is a wooden Jesus"

Jeff said:
I've contemplated that, and my theory is that, generally speaking, you can move and position the train a lot faster than you can with gravity. For example, Raptor enters the station and stops more precisely than Magnum (which I've seen go almost an entire row too far). As for departure, there's a slight pause between the time the brakes release and the train gets up to speed. Again, Raptor moves instantly, Magnum takes a monent. It might only be a second or two, but when they're capacity freaks, every second counts.

I think this is probably the correct reasoning Jeff, but I would still have to agree with Dave that there is no need to use the advancing wheels at all. AcerCG brought up a good point about the backing up, but you'd think that since that is done so little (probably in the morning and at night) that it wouldn't be worth the extra hastle when you can just cycle the trains. You are correct that it does take a Magnum train a few seconds to get up to speed when coming in off the readies. When I was in controls, I think I pulled up the readies about as early as anyone (as the first row of the second car lines up with the front pole in the station). I made next to no difference, but I just liked to get it rolling as early as possible. If you pull them up too early, the first train won't be clear of the station and the ready brakes will set again with the train just about to come around the corner (never happened to me). As for the overshoot on Magnum, it does overshoot sometimes, but only by a little. When you see it overshoot by almost a full car length, it is usually because the person in controls accidentally (or intentionally) lifts up on the dispatch button for a split second as the train comes into the station. You can "make" it overshoot just about every time if you're good at it. I never really horsed around with it because I just wanted to get the train parked quickly and more importantly not cause any downtime by messing with it.
-Matt

*** This post was edited by MDOmnis on 12/19/2001. ***

I know what ya mean about Arrow's.
Viper has brakes and wheels. I think they did this because the train immediately engages the lift. This way the speed can match the chain's speed right away. Revolution uses tires on the station approach and on the tops of certain hills. It also uses a smaller chain in the station to "push" the train on to the lift just like Ninja.
Canyon Blaster, like most Arrows, uses all gravity. Its fine, but it has its disadvantages. First, if you dont release the second train out of the readies early enough you will get a block set up as it takes a while for the train to enter the station. Next, the trains opened with 7 cars but only runs 6 cars now. So if an operator lets go too soon the train will release lap bars and the cars arent lined up with the gates. Park policy tells us to send the train all the way around and try it again, a pain in the butt! Finally, because the train gets a lot of speed out of the station drop it engages the lift way too fast. This means sometimes the train will "skip a dog" or only engage one of the two chain dogs. The result is the train slipping back and causing the lift to shake, a loud noise, and downtime. When I worked there, I suggested they add a break before the lift, but who's gonna listen to me.

*** This post was edited by baddboy on 12/19/2001. ***

James' mention of the floorless thing is something I hadn't even thought about. Obviously the alignment on those rides has to be perfect so the floor can pop in between cars. It's weird, because on Medusa (east) it parks very slowly, but Batman and Kraken park very quickly.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

I don't mean to be stupid but when a train comes into the station does the ride op have to push a button to stop it at exactly the right point or does the computer do it?

On Space Mountain at DLP, the cast member only have to push "station stop" in the case of someone going near the train or a problem. The RCC ( ride control computer, one of the 6 computers of the ride ) parks the train, without needing a human hand! The RCC also rotates the track switches, same when you remove or add a train. Just move a button and the train will move and park itself! That is helped by variable speed pusher wheels that can go in reverse also ( in the stations and final brakes ).

The only problem with relying on coasting into the station with just traditional brakes is dealing with velocity and inertia. Weights naturally vary per train, so the precision factor with inertia and bigger train weights proves less reliable. More weight, more speed, trains can easily over-shoot their usual landing position. I've seen it happen on Arrow's Roadrunner Express numerous times @ Fiesta. Grip drive tires provide a constant drive speed.

Sometimes simple engineering proves less reliable in the long run....

Sounds like the people on the train got a extra ride, I wouldn't mind that happening to me as long as only 1 train was in operation.

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I don't mean to intrude, but what about old schwarzkopf's with the chain in the station? Its much more reliable than any wheel system mentioned. Plus the train is already at a complete stop before it rolls into this system. I'd say that is the most fail safe braking system. Maybe a little more to maintain, but don't you think that is worth it?

I don't know, I would never consider chains more reliable than anything because they have far too many points of potential failure.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"As far as I can tell it doesn't matter who you are. If you can believe, there's something worth fighting for..." - Garbage, "Parade"

Coaster Fantom, Schwarzkopf didn't use the chains to stop the trains, as in the case of, say, Sooperdooperlooper, the train is equipped with an overrunning chain clutch, and on a Doppel Looping, the chains push against the back of the train. Either way, it's the station brakes that will stop the train; the chains just pull the train out of the station once it is loaded.

The big benefit to using feed wheels, of course, is that the station platform can be level. Cedar Point has some of the most steeply pitched coaster platforms I've seen in an effort to get the train out of the station a little faster. Perhaps you don't usually notice, but the back end of the station is usually quite a bit higher than the front end!

On Twisted Sisters, feed wheels are mandatory because the station is level...with trains running both ways off a common center platform, the choice is either a flat floor or a really nasty trip hazard, and that means feed wheels.

I've also noticed that trains that are parked by hand with brakes alone tend to park more quickly and more accurately than trains that are parked by computer. On many rides, the operator holds the "station brake open" button and releases it to stop the train. A human operator can make tiny adjustments that a computer cannot because the computer doesn't have the analog input that the human has (visually tracking the train as it enters the station). That's why rides like Mean Streak that self-park tend to do that little dance when they come into the station. Mean Streak typically stops three times as it enters the station! But there are no motors in there.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Then there is the Lakemont system. On Leap The Dips the operators just push the one car trains out of the station and onto the chain. I guess that's 1902 high tech.

MFRules23: How the train is stopped varies from completely automated coumputerized systems on the latest coasters to swinging a giant lever that is mechanically connected to the brakes to stop some of the older woodies.