Where is Bullet? Zonga?

Friday, March 21, 2008 10:24 AM
Olsor's avatar What? The track gauge wasn't supposed to be constant? I never knew...

Thanks for the translation, tricktrack! I'd love to get my hands on that Stengel book, but mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut.


http://pouringfooters.blogspot.com
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Friday, March 21, 2008 1:07 PM
^^Thanks for spewin all that again, tricktrack! Very informative.

Aren't Intamin/Werner rides all built under supervision from the designers now?

^YEAH! I think that book would sell mega in an English translation. Anyone know if it will happen?

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Friday, March 21, 2008 4:52 PM
^^^thanks so much tricktrack - very informative!
Oder wie man auf Deutsch sagen würde: Super... echt interessant! Dankeschön! :)
~~~

Yeah, the Stengel-book seems unavailable in any language right now, even German.
Why is that?

It's probably just that someone reckons reprinting to be economic nonsense - but how about a conspiracy theory that wants to limit the availability of the book so that certain information doesn't get spread that could lead to the uncovery of nasty facts?
:))

Just kidding.

I always wanted a copy of it, but somehow missed the time window of its availability.


mexico: where old steel goes to live forever


airtime for everyone
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Friday, March 21, 2008 5:00 PM
An english translation of the Stengel book was announced countless times on Amazon but it never materialized.

The book is out of print for quite some time and it sometimes appears on ebay for a good chunk of €.

Since it was actually a companion piece/catalogue to a Stengel exhibition at the "Deutsches Technik Museum" in Munich it was never available in a large edition anyway.
I guess the publisher has no idea that there is any international interest in the book. But it is quite old now as it ends around 2001.

It is however a very good source of information on some technical things like splines, heartline, the clothoid and insight into the Schwarzkopf bankruptcy and the whole Intamin/Giovanola connection.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 5:27 PM
^I'd really like to see this book pop up again sometime - I'm sure it will :)

I don't think they ever used a TRUE clothoid on the old loops. More like 2 or 3 different radii. I could see B&M using a true clothoid.

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Friday, March 21, 2008 5:53 PM

tricktrack said:

But I fail to see the connection between the canadian Mindbender accident and Thriller which had its debut in 1986.


I have perused the Stengel book at length as well as interviewed the genius himself. He's quite fascinating. The reason for the delay in the English version results from a conflict between the author and the publisher. I agree that it’s a treasure trove of info.

When Mindbender re-opened in 1986, its trains had been changed to three connected pilot cars with the accordion OTSR. It wasn’t terribly long before also Thriller got the retro fit. Michael Pattenburg or Andrew Marshall would know the exact date.

After the accident, any large Schwarzkopf looping coaster was destined to be outfitted with the accordion. As it turned out, only one other was produced: Olympia Looping. Of course, it got them. I rode OL at its opening show, along with Thriller, which played the Stuttgart Volkfest at the same time. The forces on Thriller were so strong that they forced the accordion down on one’s shoulders. I didn’t find the Weiner Looping or Olympia accordions to be that bad.

So, had the accident not happened, I do not believe the accordions would have appeared. THAT is the connection.

I’m just thankful that SFOG’s Mindbender, SFOT’s Shockwave and Hershey’s SDL did not get them. The travesty that Revolution has become is another story altogether …

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 1:54 AM
I've lost count of how many times I've tried to order the Stengel book already. Sheeesh!
I survived a Japanese typhoon and the Togo flat ride of death!!!!!!
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Saturday, March 22, 2008 6:34 AM
thanks for the info, ileum.

I always felt that there had to be done something to Thriller to restrain people properly. It was a pretty painful ride in its maiden year. If you rode it in 1986 you must have experienced it too.
That´s why I thought the addition of the accordeon was purely added to keep the rider in proper position.

Olympia Looping (which is technically not a Schwarzkopf product) surely didn´t need them.

The Mindbender solution of havig three pilot cars (and twelve wheel assemblies) is pretty strange but I guess this was done to prevent the same thing form happening again (?)
I rode it last year and it is incredibly intense! Much faster and g-forceful as old Dreier Looping.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:26 AM

tricktrack said:
thanks for the info, ileum.

I always felt that there had to be done something to Thriller to restrain people properly. It was a pretty painful ride in its maiden year. If you rode it in 1986 you must have experienced it too.
That´s why I thought the addition of the accordeon was purely added to keep the rider in proper position.

Olympia Looping (which is technically not a Schwarzkopf product) surely didn´t need them.

The Mindbender solution of havig three pilot cars (and twelve wheel assemblies) is pretty strange but I guess this was done to prevent the same thing form happening again (?)
I rode it last year and it is incredibly intense! Much faster and g-forceful as old Dreier Looping.


I didn't find Thriller to be "painful" in its first season at all. It was intense with powerful positive-G forces, but not painful in the least. When the accordions arrived, it was possible to get one's ears bashed ... which illustrates how the ride was 'designed' to be ridden with only a lap bar.

For me, Revolution is unendurable with the current and FULLY unnecessary OTRS. I recall the days when it didn't even have sight-blocking headrests! What a graceful machine.

Though Olympia Looping was BUILT by BHS, Stengel utilized Schwarzkopf patents and concepts to design the track, trains and control system. So, yes, it IS considered to be one of Anton's rides. In a conversation before his illness took over, he thought of Olympia as HIS ride as well. We can only dream of the wonders he and Werner would have created had fate not intervened ...

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:40 AM
^ileum, whos is BHS?

Also, isn't Anton's son sort of in the business now? Perhaps he can recaptivate his father's spirit and drive to produce some more greats like Revolution, Mindbender (both), etc.?!

My brain just doesn't 'get' how a big B&M fan can ride GA Mindbender and say "didn't do much for me." Opinion, no problem, but is it b/c the B&M's are like fighter-jet smooth and quiet? I like my ride to make noise!

Thinking of all those weird clicks, bangs and squeeks the old Anton rides make. Coaster heaven!

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 1:05 PM
^ It is interesting, there really are different opinions about Thriller's "first season" - it is a fact though that people were actually injured on the ride, and that there was supposedly a problem with the track being manufactured not according to specification.
Others say they rode it 20 times in a row and were fine.
I guess it depends a little on ones body composition as well - skinny people with large and heavy heads (such as me at the time) are probably at a disadvantage - lol.

I'm one of the people who claim the ride was NOT ok -
I felt a strange sensatiton in my neck right after I left the ride, and after a couple of days I went to see the doctor about it.
Everything turned out fine, but I definitely had no intention of riding it ever again.

Strangely, I don't have the same problem with Olympia Looping at all - although Olypmia Looping can be pretty rough in certain spots (interestingly, not always in the same spot, and also not consistently - maybe it depends on what car/train you are in-- it is somewhat mysterious).

It is too bad that they couldn't continue building these fantastic rides - who knows what they would have come up with next (would they have pulled off the figure-8-coaster?)

Thanks to all for sharing your background knowledge! *** Edited 3/22/2008 5:07:18 PM UTC by superman***


airtime for everyone
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Saturday, March 22, 2008 6:24 PM
^I never had a chance to ride Bullet, Thriller or any of the 'extreme' Anton coasters.

The closest I have gotten is probably the Looping Stars, and the Laser at Dorney. It looks really tame, but Laser really bashes into that curved after loop #2. It's just enough though. I would love to ride the extreme ones sometime.

It seems that those Thriller loops are so circular - all those extreme G's.

Yeah! How bout that figure-8 loop! I remember the model of it in Rollercoaster! magazine. I'm assuming it would have had friction wheels b/c the loop was higher than the lift! Crazy stuff!

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:23 AM
If you liked that curve on the double loop you would love the transition from the first large loop on Olympia Loop to the following two. Its a 90° banked high-speed curve. In the first car you can really feel an incredible push as the rest of the cars accelerate out of the loop. It is the best moment on the wole ride.

Thriller could get away with circular loops because the second half of the first drop is already beginning to lead into a circular form. There is no sudden jolt of changing direction. Its comparable to riding an upside-down flatride.

The figure-8-loop would have over 7-g in its entrance and exit. The guy who came up with the idea has a patent on it and he wanted to sell it for a pretty steep prize. Combine these two factors and that might be the reason why it was never built.
It didn´t have friction wheels.

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:34 AM
Somehow Schwarzkopf/Stengel would have found a way "to make it work" for the figure 8 track also - wouldn't they.. ?
I still think the two smaller loops on Thriller had enough of a jolt to them... the entrance to the first loop did feel very intense but was not the problem, I agree, and the manufacturing fault that was claimed to be the cause for the complaints and subsequently changed was the exit of the second loop if I remember correctly.
I remember the two small loops, notably the second one, to be the place where the coaster didn't "work" properly - some would say it's the "evil genius", I would say they simply went too far.
airtime for everyone
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Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:29 PM
Needin a shot of Anton! :)
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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:13 PM
BHS is a company that seemed to work with Schwarzkopf on a lot of his later rides.
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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:33 PM
Zierer and BHS (Bayerische Hütten Stahl) completed the Schwarzkof rides after the bankruptcy.

Hubert Gerstlauer, who was an electrician at Schwarzkopf formed his own company in the early eighties and provided electrics for several large coasters.
Since 1983 Gertlauer resides on the old Schwarzkopf premises.

Rides like Jetline, Lisebergbanan, Olympia Looping etc. were actually efforts by Zierer, BHS and Gerstlauer with Anton as the "man in the background".

Gerstlauer started to build flatrides and, reluctantly, built his first coaster in 1997.

BHS coaster department was later overtaken by Maurer Söhne and "Venus" in Japan is considered as the first Maurer Söhne coaster.

So the whole Zierer, Gerstlauer, Maurer Söhne connection is pretty incestuous and most of their older workers came directly from Schwarzkopf.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:33 PM
rollergator's avatar ^Thanks for all this COOL info. Some of it is vaguely familiar, other stuff is completely "news to me." :)

Weird how similar to the wooden coaster industry, where you go back a few generations and every company is started by workers from the previous company. Thank goodness there WAS an Anton, Bacon/Toomer and John Miller...

It's fairly amazing that even now, Anton coasters (ShockWave) are still getting rehabbed instead of replaced. Makes me smile.


You still have Zoidberg.... You ALL have Zoidberg! (V) (;,,;) (V)

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:38 PM
^I'm with ya there, gator!

So nice to ride a 'real' coaster like Greezed Lightnin' at a park that lacks...(kk) That ride is hands down, the star of the park.

I am still dying to interview Ron Toomer. I mean, was it money issues? It always seemed kinda ironic or silly that he didn't get to experience his headache machines.

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:24 AM
Interesting info. Like Bill said, some of that was familiar but some completely news to me. Thanks!
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