# What Makes an Inversion?

Thursday, November 7, 2002 7:44 AM

Forgive me, because I assume this topic has been discussed before - but I wasn't around to hear the discussions.

I was wondering what consitutes an Inversion on a roller coaster?

Is an inversion in relation to the normal position of a human, or to the normal position of the roller coaster?

The normal position of a human is head over heels, therefore, to be inverted our normal position would then need to be reversed. So...

On a flying coaster, would a person be considered inverted (upside down) in the first drop? Your normal position has been inverted, eventhough the coaster train is not technically inverted.

Why is an overbanked turn not considered an inversion, if your body has turned to the point it is taller than the top of your head?

Who determines the definition of inversion? When does an overbanked turn, become an inverted turn?

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Let the good times roll - Zingo

*** This post was edited by Zingo on 11/7/2002. ***

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 8:23 AM

You'll find the opinions vary greatly on this one.

For me, it has to do with how I feel.... and overbanked turns do not feel like an inversion to me. Incline loops do. I would not qualify the half-twists on Vekoma flying coasters as inversions.

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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 8:52 AM
Not taking flying coasters into acount, I know a lot of the time an inversion is considered an inversion if it turns past 135 degrees.

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If the shoe fits, find another one.

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 9:00 AM

Ravenguy: Where'd that number come from?

And yes, this has been discussed many times and is about as interesting as "Is S:TE a coaster?"

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 9:00 AM

And here's a different opinion - I feel that my body has to make a complete revolution to consider it an inversion. Personally I don't count over-banked turns, incline loops, or cut-backs. Loops, corks, diving loops, zero-g rolls, boomerangs, batwings...those sorts of things I consider an inversion.

Your mileage may vary ;-)

Matthew

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 9:01 AM
135 degrees is halfway between 90 and 180. That's where it comes from.

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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 9:28 AM
On Danimation, it was basically agreed that 135` made sense, because most Incline/Dive Loops are at least that, and MF's overbank (122`) and Freeze's (132`) don't qualify as a real inversion.

*** This post was edited by Adix on 11/7/2002. ***

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 9:57 AM

To me, I don't consider overbanks inversions, but elements such as cutbacks, are. I really don't think much about whats an inversion and what is not, so usually I just use whatever RCDB says...

Random thought just came into my mind... Wouldn't a Stengal dive that turns you 180 degrees be so cool? Kinda like an in line twist, onlt the second half reverses. I just can't get enough of that element :)

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--Dingo 65--
http://rct.ogresnet.com

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 10:26 AM

Thanks for the information, I have since learned that if the banked turn exceeds the 135-degree mark, then it is an inversion. So why then, does Cedar Point claims to have:Steepest non-inversion banked turn on a roller coaster (122 degrees)

If Mr. Freeze is at 132-degrees and using the 135-degree rule would be the winner in the non-inversion banked turn catagory.

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 10:29 AM
The 135 degree standard is not some golden law that CP is bound to. It's all about semantics and marketing and CP can claim that if they want to.

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"Look, we all go way back, and uh, I owe you from the thing with the guy in the place and I'll never forget it." "That was our pleasure." "I'd never been to Belize."

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 1:49 PM

On Danimation, it was basically agreed that 135` made sense, because most Incline/Dive Loops are at least that, and MF's overbank (122`) and Freeze's (132`) don't qualify as a real inversion.

That seems more like making the definition to fit what you already decided was an inversion and what wasn't rather than figuring out an appropriate definition and then applying it to real life.

The reason I bring this up is because, no matter what you do, there's always going to be a gray area. i.e. V2 at SFMW has half the train doing an inversion and half not. What if I had a coaster that had a stengel-dive-like element except it banked to 136, then 134, then back to 136, then back to 134 over and over a few times. Not really noticable to riders, but would that be multiple inversions? Or what if there was a ride with a 135 degree overbanked turn and depending on some really small factors (how warm the track is, how loose the wheels were running, what position the riders were in in the train. etc) could run over 135 or not.

My point in this excercise is that I think trying to come up with a hard and fast rule is not useful because there's always going to be gray area. Just like "Is S:UE a coaster?"

Seems to me that it's all just marketing. I mean, some people were saying that Intamin/Thorpe "cheated" with Colossus because it just had a bunch of in-lines.

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You must be this dumb to ride Viper. -SFGAdv.

*** This post was edited by ApolloAndy on 11/7/2002. ***

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 2:37 PM
If gravity feels to pull you head first, I consider that an inversion, even airtime feels like an inversion.

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"enough is enough"-?

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 4:06 PM

You asked What Makes an Inversion?

The answer: A roller coaster designer

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Thursday, November 7, 2002 4:40 PM
I see it this way. If the park or designer says its an inversion, then it's an inversion. (MF's overbanks therefore are not, Mantis's incline loop is)
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Thursday, November 7, 2002 6:42 PM
An inversion is whatever you happen to be pointign at when you say "That's an inversion." For myself, I do not say that when pointing at Millinnium Force, but I do when pointing to incline loops and cutbacks.
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Friday, November 8, 2002 11:18 AM

I see why this is a boring topic to some - no definate explanation, only opinions. So a personal opinion or marketing campaign is what makes up an inversion.

So when SFOG says the Mindbender has 3 loops - then they are entiled to that, because it is marketing.

Cedar Point says that MF has the steepest banked turns - because they can.

Vekoma SLC's can have 7 inversions - because they advertise it that way.

I guess since there doesn't seem to be any real set rules, only opinions - I will just use this from now on "if the train stopped in the "inverted" point of the track, and no safety device was engaged - would you fall out? If you would, then it must be an inversion.

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Friday, November 8, 2002 1:39 PM

Even though this is highly argumentative....

I have said it before, but to me anytime my feet are above my head (on a coaster;)), I am inverted. My take on things. Here endeth my Gospel.
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Saturday, November 9, 2002 12:21 AM

I have to agree with Nasai. However, that means anything 91 degrees or more becomes and inversion. My head tells me that is correct but somehow it doesn't feel right.

Perhaps this is one of those "stupid little details" things that enthusiasts tend to overanalyze in an attempt to classify and categorize every last coaster statistic they can get there grubby little hands on...

...then again, maybe it's just the fact that's its past 5am here and bed is sounding pretty good right now. :)

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Dorney Park visits in 2002: 19

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