Walt Disney World prepares to open amid praise and criticism

Strawman. It cannot be the case that everyone gets more rides in a day because ride capacity is finite.

What can be the case is that grandma and grandpa who wouldn't wait 20 minutes for Jungle Cruise are happy to get on with FP, which does make the standby line longer, but it also make grandma and grandpa happier. You can argue that that's bad for people who want to ride a lot, but I'm curious why you think that's bad for grandma and grandpa or for Disney.

But given the choice, wouldn't most people prefer a much greater likelihood of getting more rides vs. fewer?

Or being more likely to get on the newest and most popular attractions?

That's not a choice. This is, by definition, a zero-sum game. Any rides that you're losing someone else is getting.

So you're saying Grandma and Grandpa would be upset to not only have a shorter wait for Jungle Cruise but to also be more likely to get shorter waits for more than three attractions?

If you restrict everything to same day only, which again seems to work fine in every other park that exists, is it not a more equitable playing field?

You keep returning to the same strawman. First of all, there's no such thing as a shorter wait for Jungle Cruise, since they FP'd it. You're also saying that somehow, under MaxPass, everybody waits less for everything.

Every other park that exists is not Disney World. I don't know of any park where the attendance is so heavily weighted towards "once-every-five-years" type guests. Not even Disneyland is like that.

And MaxPass is not "more equitable" by any stretch of the imagination. It's just different. It clearly favors people a) with phones and data, b) who understand the system well, c) who wake up early. I bet most stereotypical grandmas and grandpas would get destroyed by MaxPass.

Edit: In fact, if anything FP+ is more equitable because it means at a baseline every single guest in the park will get on 1 headliner and 2 decent rides. Even Luddite grandma and grandpa with their flip phone.

Disney World seems designed around vacation club members who don’t need to ride everything, not the once in every five years crowd who do.

Why do you say that? Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing. Just curious.

1. What I'm saying is that it is considerably easier to get access to that shorter wait to Jungle Cruise with old school FP or MaxPass than wth FP+. You don't enter the park with a decent amount of FP inventory already gone if you're not using FP+ and the depletion of FPs is more organically used up over time. You have said you have had better luck with FP+ vs MaxPass; that has not been my experience and does not seem to be the experience of most people based on most posts I've read about the topic. I have never said no one is waiting with MaxPass, simply that it is easier to use and easier to get FPs.
2. I don't believe that "just because it's WDW, the bad system is OK" is a valid argument. Yes, the demographics are different, but I honestly think that if most people were given the opportunity to try both systems they would prefer old school FP/MP vs. FP+. I won't deny that FP+ sounds great on paper, but in actual usuage the old system was/is far superior, IMO.
3. Ok then, remove MP from the equation. Legacy FP is significantly more equitable because everyone has the same opportunity because no one can access it until the park opens. Sure, it favors the early risers, but so too do all other FP/FL/queue management systems. Even if the FP system in question is not limited in any way, a la CF parks, if you show up earlier, you ride more. I don't think it's fair to negatively penalize DL for something that applies to literally every non-WDW park with a queue management system.

ThemeParkFan1990 said:

based on most posts I've read about the topic

This, right here, is the problem. The people that FP+ is for are not the ones posting about it on the internet. They are the complete laymen who have maybe been to Six Flags once, fifteen years ago, and now want to embark on the "Great American Rite of Passage." MaxPass works at Disneyland because so much of the crowd is AP's, locals, or people who have been before and understand MaxPass. But so many visitors to WDW are completely in the dark. There are still SO many people who think FastPasses cost money. I'd rather give someone 60 days to figure out what's going on or just to book their 3 rides and not give it another thought than to have to coach them through a flow chart of what rides to book when.

Look, I'm not a giant FP+ apologist. I think there are pros and cons. And without a crap ton of loopholes, I think I would personally do worse under FP+ than under MaxPass. But I'm also very convinced that every Disney n00b I've coached through a trip does much better with FP+ than they would with MaxPass.

ApolloAndy said:

Why do you say that? Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing. Just curious.

The VC members I know seem happy to arrive late, ride a few rides before their dinner reservation and know that they have to make their reservations 6 months in advance to make that happen.

I don’t really know if it makes sense for one group or another, all I know is that it doesn’t typically work for my me or my wife. It was nice on our February trip at Animal Kingdom because we were there just a few months earlier and already rode everything so we had our three reservations and drank too much beer in between.

But if we're going with the argument that most of the WDW crowd is infrequent park visitors, wouldn't a LESS complicated and easier to use system be better for them as well as frequent visitors?

I won't argue that Disney hasn't been making an effort to explain the system to visitors. But infrequent visitors in my experience would be even LESS likely to take FP+ seriously because it seems so counterintuitive to how you would experience every other park and even WDW years ago, in which you show up when you want, get in a line, when it's your turn, go ahead and ride. That's the frame of reference those people would have. And just because you try to explain something to people multiple times doesn't necessarily mean they understand it or believe the information you're giving them to be valuable. See the anti-mask crowd for another example of this. To many of those infrequent visitors not in the know, it would be very easy to dismiss those same emails and notifications the same way I do every time a business sends me an email just to make themselves heard and remind me of their existence.

Anyone who isn't accustomed to going to WDW would find 180 day in advance restaurant reservations and advanced ride reservations via FP+ to be absurd. We don't flinch at it because we're accustomed to it, and it's naive to believe that just because Disney sends the reminder emails that everyone will be on board.

And if you don't use FP at Disneyland or the other parks, you are less likely to be directly penalized, simply because far fewer attractions have the system and it's not something done in advance. If you don't use FP+ at WDW, you are screwed.

The only ride, in seven years of living next door, that has been some combination of difficult to get a pass for or having impossibly long lines, has been Flight of Passage, and I have been on that twice. I suppose I'm just an anecdote, but this argument that all rides should be easy to get on with 50,000 people in the park every day doesn't seem logical to me.

ThemeParkFan1990 said:

But if we're going with the argument that most of the WDW crowd is infrequent park visitors, wouldn't a LESS complicated and easier to use system be better for them as well as frequent visitors?

I have only visited WDW twice in the past decade. We almost went again this year, but...ya know.

I find nothing about the FP system complicated at all. In fact, I would argue the way it's designed (for an infrequent visitor like myself) is remarkably simple.

What is so complicated about it?

More to the point....this is actually something I was concerned about as a Disney "outsider". We knew next to nothing about how to visit the parks. I found the FP system not only easy to use, but also impressed with its flexibility and access. On both trips we did more than expected quite easily, in large part thanks to the FP system.

It's not just "emails". From moment one, you are in contact with a specific cast member who literally holds your hand and walks you through the process. They also mail you a physical booklet that details your trip and your important dates to remember.

ApolloAndy said:

There are still SO many people who think FastPasses cost money.

Given that resort guests can book rides 60 days out instead of 30 for non resort guests you could say that better access does cost money. That's certainly Disney's prerogative to lay that system out. No matter what system is in place those that have a plan do better than those that do not. Personally I prefer the paper system over FP+. Maybe it's the thrill of the hunt or the instant feedback on the effectiveness of the strategy or something else entirely. I don't hate FP+ though. I've just had better success with the paper system.But am I the kind of guest that Disney wants in their park? Probably not. We generally don't stay on property. We don't park hop. We bring our lunch in to the park. We usually eat a counter service dinner over a restaurant. We spend very little on souvenirs. We haven't been to DLR in 3 years or WDW in 4 years and have no plans on returning until maybe 2022.

I just came in to say that I love the fact that an attraction Walt himself designed (or at least influenced greatly) is still drawing crowds. Granted, Jungle Cruise's hourly capacity isn't great but people still want to ride a quality, immersive attraction that...I'm happy to say...uses no video or 3D effects. Yes, I'm a former Skipper...but a proud one.

I do think locals are the greatest beneficiaries of Fastpass+ by the way...but I also would be willing to bet I've spent more at WDW in the last 20 years than just about anyone else here, though I suspect Jeff will catch up pretty quickly if this pandemic ever goes away.

Just to lob a grenade into what has become the usual FP+/FP/standby argument:

Positivity rate is a pretty important indicator of how out-of-control an infection is in a particular locality. You want to be testing way more than just infected people because asymptomatic/presymptomatic spread is a serious thing. WHO suggests that 5% positive results is a good threshold for being able to get a handle (or not) on spread.

Florida's positivity rate is bumping against 20% (though it dipped a bit yesterday). A lot of that is the southern part of the state, but Orange County, FL was reported to be 15% on July 8th. That's up from less than 10% the week prior.

On topic...or not, some data points:

• During Friday's AP preview at AK, everything was walk-on except Navi River Journey (10-20 minutes at most).
• During today's "full open," everything was walk-on including Navi River Journey.
• SeaWorld today was walk on everything.

Both Friday and today were periodically rainy, and hot as balls otherwise.

Also, the 6-ft stickers for Flight of Passage's (potential) wait line snaked all through Pandora in that area and all the way to Lion King and back.

Why is NRJ the worst? Does it have something to do with the procedures?

Low capacity vehicles and slow as hell boat ride. I'll never ride it again. In fact, I don't think I would ride it if there was nobody in line. I thought it was brutal.

I thought it was perfectly enjoyable - about the same as small world or pirates or Jungle Cruise (I know dem’s fightin words in some circles). I wouldn’t wait a huge amount of time for it, but I’d be disappointed if I had to skip it. It’s just a nice, relaxing boat ride.