Trying to understand Arrow from a sales point of v


Bosshawk said:
Tennessee Tornado having small lines has nothing to do with Arrow or the quality of the ride. I dont think I have ever heard one person say it is a bad ride other than maybe being a little short.

And, I am not saying it is a Bad Ride, I just said that it does not attract lines. I Suppose your right about the park's demographics, but it certainly did better the first season than the following ones, perhaps just because it was the center of attention for the park that year?
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"The Mountain Slidewinder. Voted The #1 Non-Rollercoaster Ride in America Amusement Business Magazine, 1991"
*** This post was edited by Dukeis#1 9/23/2003 11:59:09 PM ***

Isn't TT ride placement bad?

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Does the World need another vanilla cola?

First of all, TT has had their busiest year since it was built this year. I've seen it multiple times this year where, if it were possible, their could've been 3 trains with a line. Granted it wasn't as large a line as it got the first 2 years, it was still VERY busy.

As for TT placement, it's not great but don't expect that to be a problem too much longer. I believe that they will be expanding up the valley beside Craftsmans Valley and will connect the area. And then we'll finely have a midway loop!

As for whether or not SDC should've gotten an Arrow, from what I understand the company made a corporate decision to go with B&M and GCI for all looping and wooden coasters, unless something unique came along, like the new suspended coaster they're looking into adding at SCD from the company that makes ski lift systems.

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Flying over metal is a beautiful thing!

TNcoasterman


TNcoasterman said:
First of all, TT has had their busiest year since it was built this year. I've seen it multiple times this year where, if it were possible, their could've been 3 trains with a line. Granted it wasn't as large a line as it got the first 2 years, it was still VERY busy.

I find that hard to believe considering that Dollywood's attendance has been horrible this year becuase of bad weather. (It rained in Pigeon Forge the majority of June and July) The park is really counting on the Fall/Christmas season to make up for some of the profit lost during the Summer.
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"The Mountain Slidewinder. Voted The #1 Non-Rollercoaster Ride in America Amusement Business Magazine, 1991"

Cedar "Counter" Point said:
I don't understand Arrow from a business standpoint. Examples: Arrow builds Magnum for CP and doesn't do the other two Hypers in the CF chain. Arrow than sells a Madd Mouse to Parmount's Great America and doesn't get the opportunity to sell other Madd Mouse coasters to PKD or PCW or PCWLD.


I think you're asking the wrong question here. The way you state your question, it's as if Arrow came to Cedar Fair and said "We're going to build you one hypercoaster, and then that's it" and refused to do the others. That's just not the case - when and where a company will build a new ride is not up to the manufacturer, but the park. If a park doesn't want to buy your product, you're out of luck, and that was the case with Arrow. For whatever reason (cost, quality, etc), parks that purchased from Arrow in the past chose not to purchase similar rides from them again (see your examples above). It wasn't necessarily Arrow's selling strategy that needed work, but their business sense and an understanding that you have to evolve to continue selling in this industry.

-Nate


Okay as far as it goes with the whole TT & Wildfire thing the fact is they began planning for Wildfire in 1998 and early on decided on B&M! Remember they were originally wanting to build a hyper or standup coaster, so there wasn't even a thought to go with arrow. Also remember although yes the parks are owned by the same company it is still the personal parks final decision. Also SDC had alot riding on Wildfire. It had to be good! Well they knew B&M would definately give them a great ride.

They were taking their risk at Dollywood. They had already signed the deal with B&M before anyone ever got a chance to ride TT and see the fine job arrow did. In the end they did a sitdownd because B&M offered them their new style seating for sitdowns at a discount. Alot of it was risk factor. Yes Arrow offered a glass smooth ride but you know what Vekoma has offered the same thing to other parks and let me tell ya they didn't get it. So basically time line differences and risk factors kept SDC from buying an Arrow ride because they didn't know how good of a job they would do. I hope that makes sense to you. But still it also all comes down to the parks personal thoughts on things. And either way they do already have Thunderation which is not aging well and I'm sure that was considered also.
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THE SCARIEST PART OF THE RIDE IS THE LIFT HILL!

The amusement ride business is really pretty small. Parks are not likely to buy on brand name. They look at who is at the company and what the companies financial picture is. If Claude and Walter left B&M today, I doubt the B&M's sales would look very good in the near future.

The same is true for Arrow. A bankruptcy and a change in staff, and everyone will know that they aren't dealing with the same company.

Arrow's sales personel probably don't have that touch that the B&M staff do. Also Arrow has never made a contract for multiple coasters. They figure if they can sell ONE ride that a customer will come back if they are pleased. What they did with TT is make an ultra smooth coaster, but it ended up in the middle of Tennessee. It didn't open at Cedar Point or a park with huge statis in the world. And Arrow's attitude of "Can do anything" led them into a wide market of rides, such as their log flumes, and shoot the chutes. Did you forget the car rides, and whirly-dos they have also provided. Look at Kings Island's history, Worlds of Fun, yes most of Disneyland. Most parks in America have an Arrow ride, not just a coaster. From a buisness stand point Arrow has saturated all their markets. Thats why their forced to come up with new ideas all the time. Sure none of them get past the Prototype stage, but hell that happens most of the time.

As for the mention of B&M's 4d, that wont happen for another 17 years (unless they use an electronic device to move the seats), beacause Arrow did an extremely nice job in wording their patent for it (which was issued back in February of this year). Not even if you had a single rail would it be feasable because of what they've said in their issuance.

Arrow's bankruptcy happens becasue of errors, and because they arn't very demanding of their clients. they seem to be on the lighter side of the industry. "Your neighborhood manufacturer" type of fell. B&M still charges design fees for coasters that are the exact same (BTR).

With a new sales team Arrow could go farther.

-ADAM

Such Blasphemy

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Fear the Wrath of the Orient Express!!
www.pkixtreme.tk

Congo Falls - 90 (one day)

Arrow's patent is that tight? Good for Arrow! It make me feel good that their 4D won't get ripped. GO ARROW GO ARROW It's your Birthday.....

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Does the World need another vanilla cola?

The Arrow coasters at KI and CP are great. I see no reason why Arrow can't make awesome rides.And more of them.

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WHAT no coaster to be built in Ohio in 04? Why are we being punished! What next? No more Rollercoaster Tycoon expansion packs.


Cedar "Counter" Point said:
You Decide.....Arrow's Tennesse Tornado $8mil 2682 ft long, 163ft lift, 128 ft drop thru a mountain, 3 inversion with one being a custom loop screw.
B&M's Wildfire: $14mil 3073 ft long, 120ft height, drop 155ft, with 5 inversions.
TT was a hugh success for DW with the GP and Dw set an attendance record that year


Oh come on guys, you are forgetting the most important factor here - SDC is SDC's flagship, it will ALWAYS get the sports car and DW will always get the small compact car. It's that way in every chain (SFInc, CF:LP, SeaWorld, etc.)

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SWOOSH
MidwestInfoGuide.COM

"Worlds of Fun 2004 - Prepare to SQUEAK with Delight!"

Good point Swoosh.

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WHAT no coaster to be built in Ohio in 04? Why are we being punished! What next? No more Rollercoaster Tycoon expansion packs.

Things didn't work for Arrow in 01. If X opened without the bugs and if the Statosphere 700ft drop ride would have been devolped it may have made Arrow the player it needs to be.

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Does the World need another vanilla cola?

As if we needed more reasons why Dollywood went with Arrow... how about the fact that they were able to use the existing station from the mine train, making the whole job much cheaper? If they'd have gone with B&M it would've required a much bigger station, plus it would've offered capacity that would've been grossly uneccessary and on top of that, B&M probably wouldn't have wanted a contract that year for a coaster as small as they wanted.

None of the reasons applied to SDC, however, which could use the extra capacity B&Ms offer.

Incidentally, I was in a meeting once with several key folks from SDC the winter after they added Wildfire, and they couldn't stop talking about how much they loved B&M (and how, after some frustration with Buzzsaw falls, they'd never put in another prototype. Makes me suspicious of these suspended coaster plans)

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Touchè, teacher, touchè.

I want to start a running bet. Will Arrow sell anything within the next two seasons 04/ 05? I say Arrow won't.

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WHAT no coaster to be built in Ohio in 04? Why are we being punished! What next? No more Rollercoaster Tycoon expansion packs.

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