Trim Brake on Mantis

I don't feel the need to ride Mantis, there's too much at CP I actually LIKE...

Still, after riding the Beast the day after CP, I now know what "maximum trimmage" is all about...first drop, right before second drop (crest of hill), and the helix drop ALL had trims, hitting HARD...yikes that's a lousy way to treat the "star attraction" at the park. :-/

I never really understood why Mantis had a trim anyway. Here at SFKK, Chang is taller and a little faster but it doesn't have any trims other than the mcbr. Could it be that it was designed to go a little slower than what it actually does? I'm sure Chang(while the park was just KK) and maybe Riddler's would have had them installed to reduce wear and tear.

I don't follow your logic. The trim on Mantis wasn't installed to reduce wear and tear, so why would Chang and/or Riddler's Revenge have had trims installed for that reason? On steel coasters (particularly B&M rides), trims exist almost exclusively to control speed, to keep the speed of the train within the target range that the ride was designed for, thus ensuring a consistent, comfortable ride for the passengers, rather than to 'reduce wear and tear.'

With coasters like Mantis, Riddler's Revenge, and Chang (just to cite your examples), preventing wear and tear is something designers plan for when the coaster is still on the drafting board, not something that gets fixed with a set of trims.

I wish everyone would stop pissen and monen about that trim it's there and there is nothing you can do about it. The ride was better with out it, but everyone complained about theere legs hurting and that's why they put it in. Fast and furious is my moto

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rollergator said:
Still, after riding the Beast the day after CP, I now know what "maximum trimmage" is all about...

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Ugh... just because they changed from skids to mags doesn't mean there is any net change. In fact, some people have indicated the total ride time is actually shorter since the conversion.

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BBSpeed26 said:
I don't follow your logic. The trim on Mantis wasn't installed to reduce wear and tear, so why would Chang and/or Riddler's Revenge have had trims installed for that reason?

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Because those rides aren't located at or operated by Cedar Point. They're all about maximizing interval and programming the rides to move people most efficiently. On Raptor, for example, the mid-course now does little more than a gut check touch, while the brakes on approach to the station squeeze hard and allow the train to slide in slowly.

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the cars from the third train were moved about and uncovered beside the transfer track

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Interesting. Early in the season the crew was fast enough that they might have been able to use it. Perhaps we're going to see them try?

Raptor is one of the most interesting rides to watch. They've got it timed so well that if the crew is doing their job the train may have to stop on the waiting block for all of five seconds , sometimes it doesn't even stop, before moving in the station. CP does a great job at being efficient on the major rides (who knows what they're thinking with Skyhawk). The smaller coasters/flats do need some help with this, but I think staffing is the major issue. *** Edited 8/10/2006 4:23:49 PM UTC by gomez***

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Jeff said:
just because they changed from skids to mags doesn't mean there is any net change.

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No, but the magnetic brakes on the Beast "grab" harder than the skids ever did, and so I think they're far more noticible. So when the train passes the brakes, it feels like you're being majorly trimmed, even if the net speed loss is less than before.

-Nate

And magnetic brakes can't be regulated- they are either on or they are off. There is no such thing as "light braking" like when Kennywood lightens the braking on Thunderbolt.

My point is that regardless of what you're feeling, the net speed is not slower. This is particularly evident as you fly through the shed, which used to be continuously slowing you. You get a little jolt at the end, but so what?

Considering the way that thing runs, you need the brake there.

Maybe the speed isn't slower- I'm not debating that point- all I'm saying is that mags can't be regulated, so once they're there, they'll be there until they're removed or the Earth's poles are reversed.

Right. I think the complaint with the magnetic brakes (besides the "always on" factor) is that they're not as smooth as the skids. As Jeff said, you get a pretty big jolt at the end of the shed. That doesn't bother me, but it draws attention to the fact that you're being slowed.

The skids slowed you more gradually and thus weren't as much of an interruption, even if they were slowing you down more then than now. The magnetic brakes probably make for a better (and faster) overall ride, but the braking is just far more noticible now (IMO).

-Nate

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Timber-Rider said:
I think the trim brakes were added to Mantis to slow the train down, to allow three train operation. But, I also heard that it was added to cut down on G-forces. I think it's a combination of both.

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It's not a combination of both. It's 0% of the three-train-operation and 100% of then G-forces. The ride is perfectly capable of running three trains without the trim. So the train might wait an extra 6 seconds behind the station. Who cares?

I think I'm one of the few who actually likes Mantis's trim. Even with it on, I still think the G-forces are too high. Stand-ups are a lot of fun, but the last thing I want while putting pressure on my legs is... more pressure on my legs.

I think it depends what you're comparing mags to. if it's skid brakes, they are definitely worse because the stop is abrupt and completely noticeable. But compared to fin brakes, they are 100% better. There is a jolt but not a slam that sends you forward at an alarming rate and then back into your seat. Of course, the fin brakes I speak of are the ones on brake runs, not trims.

They shouldn't have to do that. As I'm sure you know, fin brakes are adjustable, so if they're adjusted correctly they shouldn't slam you around. I honestly don't remember riding the Beast with fin brakes, especially in the final brake run. I know that fins that are used as trims are still smoother (that is, less jolting) than the Beast's magnetic trims.

-Nate

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BBSpeed26 said:
I don't follow your logic. The trim on Mantis wasn't installed to reduce wear and tear, so why would Chang and/or Riddler's Revenge have had trims installed for that reason? On steel coasters (particularly B&M rides), trims exist almost exclusively to control speed, to keep the speed of the train within the target range that the ride was designed for, thus ensuring a consistent, comfortable ride for the passengers, rather than to 'reduce wear and tear.'

With coasters like Mantis, Riddler's Revenge, and Chang (just to cite your examples), preventing wear and tear is something designers plan for when the coaster is still on the drafting board, not something that gets fixed with a set of trims.

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That wasn't my logic. Someone else posted that and I asked them if it was to reduce "wear and tear" then why wouldn't Chang and RRv have it.

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SFoGswim said:
So the train might wait an extra 6 seconds behind the station. Who cares?

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Have you ever been stopped on Mantis at the first brake run after the second half of the course because of stacked trains? To say that stopping in that manner is unpleasant would be grossly understating how much it sucks. And it happened most of the time when they ran three trains. Every second helped. *** Edited 8/11/2006 3:05:30 AM UTC by Jeff***

The Beast did not always have all the brakes. Jeff is probably correct in saying the skids and the mags may have no net difference. The bottom line is that The Beast was ruined long BEFORE the mags came around. I don't know the exact date...but sometime early to+ mid-eighties the ride was tamed.

The 4-bench trains, the pitch on the helix, the excessive skids...yada, yada...you've heard it all before. There was a time that ALL coasters would be compared to The Beast (note I have not been on Voyage yet to determine IF it indeed surpasses the ORIGINAL Beast). I've still not been on a ride as intense as Beast circa 1979-1980.

All ride reviews are just opinion. And maybe time has inflated mine. But I've steadfastly maintained throughout my coaster-riding life that there was only one PERFECT ride. That was papa back when beer and weed flowed freely through the spit-covered swamp station with the plethera of warnings that you may lose your (gl)asses to The Beast! And boy could you...

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Jeff said:
Have you ever been stopped on Mantis at the first brake run after the second half of the course because of stacked trains?

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Sadly, I have not, but I can't imagine it would be much different. Even still, the argument is ridiculous. They could slow the chain down a little if that's what they wanted to accomplish.

So now you're an expert in lift motor maintenance and block programming?