Township supervisors approve zoning change for Conneaut land sale

I don't see this park as something that encourages people to stop being logical. If anything, I have to wonder why it makes some people preach about profit as if they possess the business acumen of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Donald Trump all rolled into one. It's like a broken record that never stops playing.

Stockholders, corporations, a family of just individuals... when I say that the park has to cover expenses, I assume "expenses" covers salaries as well as a small budget for future endeavors. I don't expect a park like Conneaut to operate while the people that own the place lose money, but I don't understand why the park can't operate to solely cover expenses instead of turning a huge profit. Do you honestly think that National Parks make the government a ton of money? I doubt it- actually, I'd be surprised if something like the Grand Canyon or Yosemite breaks even. Rye Playland is a government-owned entity, and like most things that Westchester County operates for the enjoyment of its residents, it loses money, yet its existence is justified. If Conneaut can eventually do one better and sustain itself, why shouldn't it continue to operate if people want it there?

I understand what you're saying Gonch... the guy does have a pile of money to fall back on if the business continues to operate in the red. The point I was trying to make is that some people do things out of passion, whether they're billionaires or common folk with credit card debt and mortgages to deal with. Those people expect the park to take care of itself from a financial standpoint but don't expect it to help them buy condos for their kids on the ocean.

Suppose Conneaut finds a way to break even: cover operating costs, pay the salaries of the people that own the place and set aside small amounts of money for future plans... is there a reason why it shouldn't continue to exist?

You're comparing business to a tax-subsidized government entity? That's not logical either.

Persnickety, I like that word. Describes more than park neighbors. ;)

I think everybody's jumping to conclusions here about what the park will and will not allot money towards at the end of a season that hasn't even started yet. Who can say for sure that the park will or won't make a profit after this year?

The way I understand this problem, having never been to the park and maybe I have it wrong, is that the place is saddled with a lot of debt incurred by previous (mis)management. A lot of the revenue that did come in in recent years had to be allocated toward those problems, and not used for things like capital expenditures, maintenance, etc., to the point where every year it's questionable whether the park can even open.

But now with this pending sale of land that wasn't vital to the park's operation, they will raise the capital to pare down that debt. So now the revenue that does come in will be able to be used for operation and maintenance and perhaps even capital. I can't say for sure, since I've never seen the books.

It appears that for whatever reason some people just have a bug in their ass about this park, and nothing that ever happens there will be seen as a positive. Funny that when another park chain announced it was considering selling off unused land to help pay down its debts, it was hailed by some as the answer to all its problems. So how is this majorly different? Lots of so called great businesses came and flamed out in the years that people spent waiting for this place to die.

---

Funny that when another park chain announced it was considering selling off unused land to help pay down its debts, it was hailed by some as the answer to all its problems. So how is this majorly different?

---

Because millions and millions of people still visit the SF parks and they're located in or near major metro areas that aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm of the belief that CLP's time is about to pass. Based on my last couple of visits and my general knowledge of the western PA area - I think Conneaut Lake as a place to vacation or a place of recreation is all but dead. So many properties for sale, so few people in the park, next to no reason to go there - especially amusement park-wise. Equal or better choices are closer for just about anyone within a decent range. The built-in wekeend getaway or vacation crowd seems practically non-existant.

It has little to do with the financials and everything to do with the area. I think that's what Jeff means with the 'band-aid on wound that won't heal" comment.

How long can the park limp along now that they're out from under that debt? Who knows? Might even be a while. Still seems like it's just a measure to prolong the slow aganizing death to me.

"Labor of love"-type businesses are ALWAYS going to be operating "until further (final?) notice". Nature of the game...

If the continued survival of any business depends on people who love what they do more than "what they can get out of it", then it IS just that, a labor of love. There's something really nice about that...but once the ownership nchanges hands by sale OR by inheritance or whatever, then continued existence become a VERY dicey proposition.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think you're ALL right...well, except me of course... ;)

You hit the nail on the head, RGB. Actually, all the nails.

Conenaut has long been a park operating under a mountain of debt. Six Flags is an entire company that has long been operating under a mountain of debt. And as Joe said, people were all for Six Flags closing and selling an entire park for the sole purpose of eliminating some of its debt... meanwhile, Conneaut is selling some land that it doesn't need, yet that's viewed by some people as a bad thing?

You're also correct about the park allocating the majority of its revenue in recent years for the repayment of loans... loans that were necessary because the previous ownership/management drove the park into the ground. Why all the doom and gloom? I understand that the area isn't exactly up-and-coming, but why close the door on the park when it might have the potential to operate and realize benefits from the revenue it produces? If the sale of the land goes through, why not sit back and see how the park does for a couple of years in an entirely new financial situation before saying the park's time has come?

I hate to say it but it's true, I think a lot of people have this thing against the park and no matter what it does, will always want to see it fail. I know that Gonch has been to the park before but some of the other outspoken critics have never even been there before. Just like I can't judge an album I've never heard, you can't judge a park and assess its situation if you've never bothered to go there.

Why are you making this into a versus debate? Is it because your other points aren't being accepted? Selling the land isn't a "bad thing," it's just not fixing anything. It doesn't change the game. For Six Flags it did because big companies do a lot of different things to manage debt and cash flow. It's like comparing a pay advance to a loan to build a skyscraper.

And again, this is not an emotional issue. No one here is saying that the park should just die now and not see what happens, as you seem to suggest. I can't speak for Gonch, but I think what we're both getting at is that it's not going to fix anything in the long run.

And you're right, I never have been there, and I never will go there. I trust my friends, and if they say it doesn't feel safe, or that it's a crappy area of the state (one girl I dated recently referred to it as meth lab central), or whatever, then I'm not going. This notion that there's some enthusiast obligation to support that which sucks is silly.

Feels a lot safer than Camden to me. The area around the park is old and there are some biker bars but inside the park is much improved clenliness wise. The rides seem in good operating order and the clientel was just average everyday people. Hanging out around the beach is a blast with always someone showing off some old cars.

You must miss out on a lot of unique experiences and fun, JUST from what someone else says.

Chuck. who says watch for that Amish horse buggy when going there :)

I'm not making this a versus debate, Jeff. I'm calling you out on the fact that you don't seem to think that the land sale is going to benefit the park because it seems to me that it will. Consider the following:

The park has a mound of debt that needs to be paid off. Once said mound of debt is paid off, park might be able to better utilize revenues. Park sells unnecessary land and uses money to pay off debt.

How can you honestly say that doesn't accomplish anything? Seriously, it seems very clear to me. The fact that you refuse to realize that led someone else to state the obvious... that some people are going to be down on Conneaut no matter what kind of good news happens to surface. Yet believe it or not, I can somewhat respect that. I know there are things in this world that I'm not that enthusiastic about, regardless of what they do... things like Chrysler, Canada and Green Day. No breathtaking new car, no gorgeous city and no flawless album is going to do much to change my mind about that car maker, that country and that band.

That said, I think it's a shame that you refuse to visit the park. It's not about some unwritten enthusiast law that states to have to visit all parks, it's about being the webmaster for a coaster enthusiast site and talking sh*t about a park that you know absolutely nothing about. "...that which sucks"? And I suppose you know this how? Because your friends told you that... that someone called it "meth lab central"... whatever that means? I find it a little disturbing that you're willing to use your website to insult a park that you know nothing about. That, and the fact that you rely on others when forming your opinions of things, rather than being an independent thinker.

*** This post was edited by Rob Ascough 4/20/2007 11:21:23 PM ***

I think it's important to look at the long picture. Conneaut Lake Park has been here a very long time, indeed, so perhaps we only truly do it justice if we think in the same scale. Yes, it's struggling now, in part because of geography. But who's to say what the situation will be like in, say, ten years? Twenty? Thirty?

By 2025, if memory serves me, the population of the U.S. is supposed to hit 400 million or more. Not all of those new Americans are going to be living in California or Texas. With increasing water shortages and droughts in the West, climate predictions that show the lower Midwest having much gentler winters a few years down the road, and a host of other changes that are coming down the pike, western Pennsylvania might be a lot more popular place to live in the long term.

The actions that are being taken now to save CLP may someday be seen in retrospect as heroic and farsighted.

The decline of Conneaut Lake Park did not begin in the early 2000's or for that matter in the early 1990's it all started between 1980 and 1984. I can recall visiting the park druing the 1970's and the place was empty. It all started with the decline of industry in the Pittsburgh region, the steel workers and their families made Conneaut home during the summer months, the old man worked while mom and the kids would stay from after the last day of school through Labor day. In fact I can name about 18 people who still do this to this day and they all own the cottages down behind the park. Though they are now older and their children bring up their children times that number by the hundreds and you had Conneuat Lake Park during the 50', 60's and early 70's. Now for the debate at hand the money issue with the park began to hit around 1987 that is when they really started to feel the pinch from the lack of attendance. Many of the properties that skirt the backside of the park were left in disrepair and even some to this day are still standing. This started to hit the park in other ways like property taxes, many of those homes were listed as park property and were on the tax rolls, throw in the general park property and you have a problem. Add to that an aging infrastructure, which by the way is still original to this day. Around 1990/1991 is when the crap really hit the fan due to the lack of income and the increase of property taxes, the park owners now began to worry. Doesn't anyone know why the park closed before the new owners took over? They were broke, they could not pay the taxes, they could not cover payrolls they could not pay the vendors. To the rescue came an investor who said OK this is what I am going to do to make this work. 1. Gate the park 2. Bring in concerts every Friday and Sataurday night. 3. Add a water park. 4. Add additional parking lots because we will need them, and believe me they needed those lots. 4. Advertise the park throughout the region and target families and large groups. Guess what it worked, people flocked to the park traffic would be a mess however what was good for 3 seasons soon ended. Though people ended up going to prison for their misgivings the local governements didn't help any neither. They nailed the park for taxes way beyond anything that should of taken place, oh but wait Walmart is moving in up the road lets give them a 15 year tax abatement. I place the decline of Conneaut lake Park soley on the hands of the local people. They used and abused the place like it was their own playground (the stories I can tell), the politicians who felt they still needed to pay up, though Conneaut was the cash cow for many years. I think the sale of property may help but I like to know who is going to buy these condos? In the end the park will keep going deeper and deeper into debt. I like to know what is the expectation of keeping the park open with all of its aging structures? Do you think the park is making money from the few coaster enthusiast that visit the place once maybe twice a year. Crawford County along with all of the other western Pa. counties are loosing people faster than they are gaining, the numbers don't lie. With all of that said I wish the park well and hope that someday someone will open their eyes to the real problem with the park and the area around the lake. Take care

Since Conneaut is operated as community trust and not as a private business, I think it is more than fair to make the comparison between the park and a tax-subsidized government entity. Oaks Amusement Park in Portland Oregon is run by a non-profit corporation. I wonder if Conneaut could go that route.

Meth lab central? What the hell? What a tiny world some people live in. There is so much more to life than Orlando and Las Vegas. I never felt the area was unsafe or crappy. But I guess it depends on your perspective. I find Vegas to be pretty crappy (and unsafe as I was almost mugged by a band of thugs).

You're the one who brought Vegas into the discussion, not anyone else.

Thanks for the background on Conneaut... um, whoever you are ;) I wasn't trying to insinuate that Conneaut's problems began in the 90's- I'm sure the park was already dealing with declining attendance and declining profits long before then. The point I've been trying to make is that it's not unreasonable to want a business (in this case, an amusement park) to reinvent itself, and believe that it can. It's been done before, even with amusement parks. Arnolds Park. Rye Playland. Dorney Park. Lakemont. The list goes on and on.

As I've been saying all along, it seems that Conneaut has a chance to eliminate the majority of its debt and possibly get on some solid financial ground. Why not cheer the park on, rather than proclaiming it will never work, especially if you've never been to the park in the first place. Besides, if you've never bothered to visit the park, why make strong statements against the park at all, claiming it's a death trap, a meth lab, or whatever you happened to hear most recently from "friends"? It sure as hell doesn't matter to you what happens to the place, now does it?

Um...did I "accuse" somebody of bringing Vegas into the discussion? I'm just citing examples of places that are overhyped at the expense of millions of other places that are overlooked because of a perception of being a "meth lab" (what does that mean?). There's a lot of cool stuff in "flyover country."

People have been "cheering on" the park for years. Is that going to miraculously change the reality of the situation?

You entirely miss the point about what my friends tell me about the place. It's not a character flaw on my part, it's an image problem for the park. You can't blame me for that. If the place has a reputation for being a dump, then why would anyone bother to go there?

Gonch and I talk about this in the podcast (will post tonight), but seriously, with alternatives for every surrounding area (Geauga Lake, Waldameer, Kennywood, or even Darien Lake), what chance does the park have? I'm just realistic enough to see it.

Yeah, you're the only one with the clarity of vision, Jeff. I stand corrected.

Seriously, you are seeing things from one side and I am seeing things from another. You feel the park is in a depressed area and is so far gone that it stands no chance of hanging on. I feel the park is going to get a big boost from the sale of land and put itself in a better position from a financial standpoint. Why is it so hard to accept that this could be a turning point? And why is it a bad thing for people to cheer for the park? People cheer for sports teams. People cheer for breast cancer research. People cheer for racial equality. People cheer for a clock being erected in the town center. Partially because of those people, sports teams win games, research is conducted on breast cancer, society inches closer to racial equality and clocks are erected in the centers of towns.

How does anyone miss the point about what your friends tell you? You formed an opinion of Conneaut without ever having gone there. And there's really nothing wrong with that, except that you always criticize the place without ever knowing what it's about. I've had my friends tell me plenty of things, and while I take their opinions to heart, I also chose to think on my own and form opinions based upon personal experiences. I didn't believe that Team America was a bad movie, so I saw it for myself and ended up loving it. Critics bashed the new Stone Sour album but I gave it a listen and ended up buying it. I guess I'm just one of those people that likes to figure out stuff for himself...

You know there's a meth lab in the base of that clock tower. Do what you want but I'd stay away. ;)

I think the park needs a little more cheering and little less "doom and gloom." The park needs a lot of work but it also has a lot to like and I'm not ready to give up on it. It has a value far beyond its "business value." I'm sorry if you percieve my affection and optimism for a place I love as nothing but the unrealistic ramblings of a fairy-feathered flibidityjibbit.

And thank you for the invitation to listen to the podcast, but honestly, I already had my fill of you and Gonch's opinions on here. but keep me posted if you find somebody with something fresh to say.

Did I say you couldn't cheer for the park? You're arguing personalities, I'm arguing economics. You don't have to make it personal.

If the area is so blighted and crappy, shouldn't someone be telling this Sutterlin guy he's deluding himself paying $3 million for this property and intending to build 30 condos? Or are they going to be meth labs in disguise?