The Paramount Takeover

I bet that the happy days diner will be turned into a coasters resturant.

That's "good debt", IMO. They're probably getting a SWEET interest rate based on CF's credit history, the PP parks have proven to be income-generating assets, and they have a good "name" behind them (what we used to call *goodwill* in business class).

CF will continue to do what CF has done, they'll invest in the BIG parks annually (CFKI and CP), with smaller parks getting smaller investments routinely and *occasional* big expenditures.

The only downsides I see? Wooden coasters...and park atmosphere... :( *** Edited 5/24/2006 5:34:45 PM UTC by rollergator***

The atmosphere is what I'm worried about the most. The Paramount Parks, especially Kings Island have a certain charm to them that just can't be found anywhere else, truly making them unique experiences. If that charm is gone, I dont think I will feel the same way about them. As with what has become of Geauga Lake, while I know much of it has been Six Flags' mismanagement, by making it only $20 to get in, yes, it's a great value, but in a way it has devalued the park. Has it even seen an attendance increase since Cedar Fair took over?

As far as Geauga Lake, from an employee standpoint at one of the parks most popular rides, I've seen an increase from last year, but we'll see when Tidal Wave Bay opens this Saturday.

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Arthur Bahl said:
Regarding Grizzley at PKD, this is one coaster that does not appear to get the recognition that it deserves. I'm not sure how well it is maintained now but back in 1996 when I rode it, it bacame one of my favorite woodies. Along with Phoenix and Raven, this ride shows that a wood coaster doesn't have to have 100 foot drops to be really good.

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Agreed. Grizzly is one of the only things I'm looking forward to this year at PKD (Italian Job, Volcano, Tomb Raider, and Avalanche being the others). Last year on the Bring a Friend weekend, the ride was running well. It was so clear at night, on the top of the lift hill, you could see for miles, and it seemed so isolated from the park (even more than it does during the daytime). Call me crazy, but I love a good, even rough, wooden coaster. I think it has something to do with feeling the track elements... smooth wooden coaster turn me off. Maybe that's why rides like Georgia Cyclone, Wildcat (Hersheypark), Roar, and Grizzly are all in my top ten woodies.

You also have to remember that many of the paramount parks are very profitable. If you have a debt load of 2 billion, but you are making 250 million in profits per year, you can still improve a bit and still pay down the debt load.

2,000,000,000 x 5% over 10 years is: 200 million a year. Of course, they probably have a debt reduction plan that is a bit more long term than 10 years, but for a business, that's a good benchmark. If they spread it out shooting for a 30 year payoff, it would be about 100 million a year. (just paying interest comes out to 7.5 million a month)

Last year, cedar fair profited just short of 100 million if you don't count the one time 49 million tax refund they had. I couldn't find any profit figures for the Paramount parks, but they have less parks and just a bit less revenue - I imagine that they are probably just as or even more profitable, which means that they are close to 100 million a year as well. They can certainly afford buying the parks for that amount of debt!!!

With Six Flags, the problem was the amount of money spent versus the amount of revenues coming in. The big parks are still cash cows. Many of the smaller parks had very little return for their dollar. Geauga Lake was a prime example, and we see what happened to them. Having a large debt load means nothing if you can keep paying off the interest. What matters is if you can keep paying down the interest and still be able to grow the revenues every year by adding new rides and services. The fact that they did NOT include the new Great Wolf property in the sale tells me that they may be thinking of making Kings Island into a Family destination resort ala CP. Same thing with Canada's Wonderland. Imagine the money they'd make with their hotel properties if they have an indoor waterpark with Winterfest going on most of the winter, not just Christmas (with the Ice Skating and train rides and maybe even a man-made sledding hill).

This could be very good in the long term, especially since they have the example of what NOT to do by looking how SF expanded too quickly.

-Chris *** Edited 5/24/2006 6:16:18 PM UTC by Isca***

For all those out there that like to beat up Cedar Fair on it's "Wooden Reputation", try not to forget that this is the same chain that operates Shivering Timbers and Ghost Rider. Each has gone through some rough periods, but are both highly regarded woodies.

I think that this acquisition is going to be a little more transparent than people think. Change will be slow and consistent.

// any "atmosphere" that PKI had left, bit the dust when they put it IJ:ST.

I just hope they can get a big steel coaster now.

Yeah, I don't get all the slams on the woodies, either. Except for Mean Streak, what other CF woodies suck? I mean really suck?

Now how many Paramount woodies are good? I mean really good? Not just good 10-20 years ago?

Anyone out there think Raging Wolf Bobs ran better under Six Flags? Under Premier? Under Funtime?

I thought so.

Its not that they suck, its just they could be soo much better. With the exception of ST, Blue Streak, and Timber Wolf I have suffered a massive bout of anticipointment on CF woodies (and Ive been to every park but KBF.) Of course, I really liked the Vilian, but I havent been back to GL since CF took over so until I do its still a Six Flags Coaster to me.

Touchdown, the follow-up question to your Villain comment is when did you last ride that one? The ride was amazing when it first opened, but it went downhill quickly under Six Flags.

Weren't both Shivering Timbers, and Ghost Rider built before Cedar Fair took over?

I brought this up in another thread, but king cobra still sits in pieces at pki. I think it would look nice at michigans adventure.

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rollergator said:
That's "good debt", IMO. They're probably getting a SWEET interest rate based on CF's credit history, the PP parks have proven to be income-generating assets, and they have a good "name" behind them (what we used to call *goodwill* in business class).

CF will continue to do what CF has done, they'll invest in the BIG parks annually (CFKI and CP), with smaller parks getting smaller investments routinely and *occasional* big expenditures.

The only downsides I see? Wooden coasters...and park atmosphere... *** Edited 5/24/2006 5:34:45 PM UTC by rollergator***

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PKD has always been one of PP's top level parks second only to PKI so I wouldn't necessarily expect the cap ex to be reduced especially given the competition from surrounding parks such as BGE & SFA.

I'd see things staying somewhat the same as they've recently been with PKI & PKD recieving decent cap ex spending on a consistent basis with PCAR & PGA remaining pretty much the same as far as cap ex spending is concerned....and no that's not simply because PKD is the one park closest to me within the chain.

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crazy horse said:
I brought this up in another thread, but king cobra still sits in pieces at pki. I think it would look nice at michigans adventure.

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King Cobra's trains are sitting in the building with the Flight of Fear. I think King Cobra is beyond it's years though.

*** Edited 5/25/2006 5:51:40 PM UTC by cyberdman***

I dont know,

The last that I remember hearing was that it was for sale.

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PKD has always been one of PP's top level parks second only to PKI so I wouldn't necessarily expect the cap ex to be reduced

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Not to be picky here, but how is PKD second only to PKI? According to the released information PCW beat them both for the number one spot.

PCW - 3.3 million visitors
PKI - 3.1 million visitors
PKD - 2.1 million visitors

Just felt the need to point that out.

I don't know, I still think CF doesn't want anything to do with Togo. It's one thing to have am operating coaster (Shockwave and SkyRider, which I also see being sold or scrapped under CF's rule). It's another to take one that's in pieces (and has been for quite some time now) and throw it in another park. I can't imagine they would do that without consultation from the manufacturer, which Knotts/Cedar Fair sued over Windjammer in the past. I think CF is chomping at the bit to find a reason to remove these coasters, sell them or scrap them.

PKI took out King Cobra because it broke down a lot and was more hassle than it was worth to keep open. It's been on the market since they removed it with no takers. That should tell you something.

I've heard from a couple of sources that while they look the same, there were a lot of significant engineering changes between KC and the Togo standups that followed.

Bottom line, MiA doesn't get KC and we get several more years of whining before MiA gets another coaster.

^Yeah I like to hear whiny people from Michigan. :)