Smaller Six Flags Part, Detrimental to the Six Flags Brand Name?
Westside7th said:
I think cloning rides really hurts Six Flags. Having the exact same ride at many locations like Batman keeps the regional parks from expanding and drawing guests from across the country. Cedar Fair has the right idea by building hypers and inverts at many parks but changing the layouts and giving them different names and color schemes. Also, most guests do't know that WoF or Knott's and MiA are part of the chain. So if they have a bad experience they won't boycott the chain, just the park because they don't know any better. Paramount has the brand name but their parks have variety like Cedar Fair.
Right, so what you're saying is that Sea World of San Antonio was cool when they added their Batman clone, because they changed the colors and called it Great White. Who gives a crap? Most Six Flags parks only have a couple of cloned rides, at best. The big exception to that rule being Six Flags America of course. But look at where you'd have to go to ride the clone of their rides and you'll see for the most part that you're argument doesn't hold water.
Coaster Next Closest Ride
Mind Eraser Wildwood The Great NorEaster
Joker's Jinx SFFT Poltergeist
Two-Face PKI Face-Off
Roar SFMW Roar
S:ROS SFDL S:ROS
Batwing GL X-Flight
So you see that'd you'd have to do an awful lot of traveling to rack up these credits as to become jaded about the presence of another similar ride. How many families or people do that besides us? The answer? Very few. Many of the rides I listed are far more than a day trip, and therefore out of reach for many of the people even here on this site since they're too young to rent a car/hotel room etc.
Paramount sure has a lot of variety. They have four different coasters with the name "Top Gun". Every drop ride is called "Drop Zone". There are two "Hurlers" two "Flight of Fears", three "Vortexs" and now two "Italian Job Stunt Tracks" (and a third might be on the way). See what I'm getting at? It really doesn't matter.
The last thing I'll add is that Six Flags had a bad reputation even before the takeover. It might have been my younger age at the time (18), but I think Great Adventure was just as bad back then as it is now. *** Edited 7/22/2005 1:59:16 PM UTC by Intamin Fan*** *** Edited 7/22/2005 2:04:25 PM UTC by Intamin Fan***
Meanwhile, there's a CF park near me with a Corkscrew, a PT, a Thunder Canyon, a Steel Venom, a Hydroblaster, an Arrow Mouse, a Coasters restaurant, a Riptide and a Morgan hyper that isn't like the others because they improved the things they didn't like about this layout for the other two, which are near-clones of each other. Did I forget the cloned Gerstlauer coaster they installed before losing the KCS-MOA management contract?
Almost everything new in the park since '97 is either a clone or a hand-me-down--like the Skyscraper or the last batch of kiddie rides.
Meanwhile...nobody really gives a rip.
-'Playa
EDIT: Okay, TT was specifically designed to fit around KCS' ventilation towers and the other attractions...but they still cloned it at WOF. Point being, CF clones too.
*** Edited 7/22/2005 2:54:35 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
Joker's Jinx SFFT Poltergeist ????
nope FOF at KD! same ride just indoors ;)
Brian Noble said:
Even the destination parks have overlap. Can you imagine a Disney castle park without Space Mountain? Neither can I. There are a few nutcases, like me, who have been to more than one, but largely if someone lives East of the Mississippi, they go to WDW; West of it, DLR.
This is exactly my point. People don't travel to Disneyland from the East coaster simply because they have the same thing down in Florida. You just proved my point that cloning reduces the number of people who will travel farther to go to other parks.
More concretely, let's consider the two rides that enthusiasts love to hate: the SLC and the Boomerang. Nearly every medium-sized park in existance has one or both of these. Guest what? They get good ridership, they occupy medium-to-small footprints, and they aren't expensive.
What's your point? Hardly anyone travels out of their way to ride an SLC or boomerang.
The irony of this is that the example you picked as the one that "hurts" is probably the most successful clone ever!
Most successful because they have built it the most? No one is going to travel from SFMM to SFGAdv to ride their Batman because they already have one. Rides like Kingda Ka and X will draw people from beyond the market bubble because they are different. Clones don't have a draw like that.
Which do you think the parks want more of as customers... GP or enthusiasts?
the answer... GP cause they make up more of the population. and GP as stated before goes cause they want to go to park not because of ride selection. *** Edited 7/22/2005 3:24:46 PM UTC by dragonoffrost***
Are there a lot of people who would think of those things? Probably not. But there is certain to be some. I recall talking to a relative who went to Kentucky Kingdom and, based on that visit, he said he would never visit another Six Flags. I told him he shouldn't judge the whole chain based on that bad experience but you see where I am coming from.
King's Island had some rough years and when I was planning a visit to the Virginia area I had to choose between Busch Gardens and Kings Dominion. I went with BG because I thought it would be "nicer" than Kings Island.
Fair or not, those types of things will happen and Six Flags/Premier should have given it a little more consideration in my opinion.
People don't travel to Disneyland from the East coaster simply because they have the same thing down in Florida. You just proved my point that cloning reduces the number of people who will travel farther to go to other parks.
Wrong. People don't make the trip because it's three freaking time zones away, making it a royal pain in the arse to visit from Eastern Time. My daughter got up at 5AM for the first three days, and then we sat around waiting for 10 to roll around so we could get into the park. Not fun.
Ask a random person in WDW about Disneyland, and they *might* know that it is in California, but they will have no idea what's there, or how similar everything is. They didn't choose not to go to DL because the rides were clones, they chose not to go because it's farther away and more difficult and expensive to get to.
Most successful because they have built it the most?
No, I'd say that honor goes to Boomerang. Most successful because it's the one clone that no one minds riding again. *** Edited 7/22/2005 4:01:27 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
These are bonafide attendance figures from the company. Now, we can argue if branding the smaller parks diluted the brand on a national level (which may not be a major point with the general public because few will ever venture beyond hitting their regional Six Flags). One thing for sure is that it made rolling out last year's Mr. Six campaign -- its first national campaign in 7 years -- that much easier because they knew they were getting more bang for their buck.
What's your point? Hardly anyone travels out of their way to ride an SLC or boomerang.
My point is that the locals ride 'em. A lot. And, for medium-sized parks, the locals are something like 99.9999% of the attendance, traveling enthusiasts being the other 0.0001%. So, installing a cheap, known quantity to entertain the locals sounds like a good business decision.
Put another way, hardly anyone travels out of their way to ride anything, unless they are visiting a destination park. By my count, there might be three legitimate destinations: Disneyland/DCA, the WDW complex, and *maybe* USF/IOA (though I'd bet that most non-locals at Universal are there becuase they are taking a side trip from WDW.) Yes, there are lots of out-of-town visitors at Cedar Point, and Magic Mountain, and ... but it's still the case that the overwhelming majority of the guests at Cedar Point on any given day drove there from home that morning.
*** Edited 7/22/2005 4:15:54 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
Someone made the comment several posts up that ALL of the SF parks made a profit. I guess that could be true at the EBITDA unit level, but not the bottom line. Otherwise, we wouldn't see the ongoing loss at the corporate level...unless their financial management on the corp side is REALLY bad...
Joel
Brian Noble said:
People don't travel to Disneyland from the East coaster simply because they have the same thing down in Florida. You just proved my point that cloning reduces the number of people who will travel farther to go to other parks.Wrong. People don't make the trip because it's three freaking time zones away, making it a royal pain in the arse to visit from Eastern Time. My daughter got up at 5AM for the first three days, and then we sat around waiting for 10 to roll around so we could get into the park. Not fun.
Ask a random person in WDW about Disneyland, and they *might* know that it is in California, but they will have no idea what's there, or how similar everything is. They didn't choose not to go to DL because the rides were clones, they chose not to go because it's farther away and more difficult and expensive to get to.
4:01:27 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
I find it really funny that since you had a bad time zone experience that you assume that "people don't make the trip because it's three freaking time zones away." Then why do people still travel to CA, Europe, etc? I don't know where you pulled that generalization from because it's wrong. Most people DO know what Disneyland is. Seeing as most parents these days grew up with Disney characters. People chose to go to Disney World because there is more stuff to do. Magic Kingdom is a modified versioin of DL but there are a bunch of different parks nearby and water parks that DL doesn't have which is why people travel down there instead of to DL. Clones don't draw people outside of the region.
As always, your mileage may vary, in my opinion, offer not valid in all 50 states, use at your own risk, etc... ;)
Someone else mentioned low attendance at the water park. On the two occasions that I've been to SFKK the water park was packed. Enough so to make you stick to the rides to avoid the crowds. It was very hot on both days.
SF has flagged even smaller parks than any of their current parks. For example, Six Flags Power House in Baltimore.
However, you are implying that original rides *would* draw people. Except for two or three destinations IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, original rides don't draw people in numbers significant enough to care about. People go to their closest regional park when they take their one annual amusement park trip. They might visit another regional park as part of a larger visit somewhere, but only because "they're already nearby." Likewise, when someone decides to go to "a Disney park", they are likely to go to the closest one---just because it's easier. It's not just time zones---cross country flights are longer, are more expensive, and flying from west to east either eats an entire day or costs you a night's sleep: it's a minimum four hour flight, plus a three hour time difference.
The vast majority of first-time visitors to a park have literally NO IDEA what specific attractions the park has, even for destination parks. The set of attractions (and their uniqeness) is just not what motivates visitors. Len Testa, one of the authors of the Unofficial Guide to WDW (hands down the most popular guide book to that location) estimates that less than ten percent of first-time visitors buy ANY guidebook AT ALL.
And, as for most people knowing where Disneyland is? Not in my experience. When I told people here in Michigan that I was going to Disney*land*, fully 3/4 of them assumed I meant Florida.
Finally: guess what the most popular attraction in Epcot is. By FAR. As in two hour waits in the last hour of operation. As in no Fastpasses left after 1-2 in the afternoon.
Soarin'. A clone.
Bonus points: guess which attraction was not planned to be a part of the Magic Kingdom, but was added after guests literally stormed guest services complaining that it wasn't there?
Pirates. A "clone" not half as good as the original.
*** Edited 7/22/2005 6:09:04 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
The cloning issue is being way overblown here.
NABOY said:
coasterdude318, thanks but its not lowest attended Six Flags park buddy.
Uh yeah, actually, it is. Have you seen the figures? I'm guessing you haven't.
-Nate
If Six Flags maintained their promises to all of the rebranded park to have them operating at the same level of customer service and quality, there would be no negative view of Six Flags Inc. However, Six Flags is constantly losing money because of their debt and keeps spiralling downward. People say 'they can always get loans from somewhere' but it seems like the line has to be drawn at some point.
*** Edited 7/22/2005 7:07:01 PM UTC by Cameraman***
However notice how around mid 2002, the stock takes a nose dive. It is almost comical because it reminds me of a first drop on a roller coaster. I am not sure if that was due to 9/11, or other factors. I am sure they blamed it on the weather and less traveling due to 9/11. It has been that low ever since and the company has not recovered.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PKS&t=my&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=
Now look at Cedar Fair.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=FUN&t=my&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=
seems like an upward climb, more. That is kind of funny, Cedar Fairs stock is like a lift hill and keeps climbing, and Six Flags is like a first drop with a steep decline. *** Edited 7/22/2005 9:34:16 PM UTC by Beast Fan***
dragonoffrost said:
Intamin fan actually you were kinda off on one of your closest...Joker's Jinx SFFT Poltergeist ????
nope FOF at KD! same ride just indoors ;)
Really? I had no idea. All these years of riding and you throw this at me?[lots and lots of sarcasm]. Some don't consider Flight of Fear to be a clone of Joker's Jinx because of it being indoors, hence that's why I didn't list it. Some would argue that the experience is completely different even if the track configuration is the same.
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