Six Flags underestimated loyalty to Cedar Point

There's several posts that are offer good insight into Six Flags present situation. Rideman noted that there's a lack of consistency in the 'Six Flags experience'. This is true going from one park to another, but can also be true from visit to visit. Since Six Flags is so large and spread out, there's few of us in a position to know much about more than a handful of parks. The Six Flags parks I've visited, SFOT and SFFT, seem to be nice, well run parks. Frontier City in OKC (interesting in that it is NOT a Six Flags branded park even though it's the original Premier property) struck me as a haphazardly managed park. So which experience 'represents' Six Flags?

Perhaps the public prefers a consistent 'experience' more than SFTP is willing to admit. This is true in other businesses; it's why you might stay at a particular motel chain or eat at a particular restaurant chain when you're travelling. But consistency is not about 'sameness' of the parks; I actually like parks that are different. It's OK to have small parks like Frontier City; every park doesn't need a hypercoaster, a boomerang, or even a Batman clone. It is desirable that your brand name be associated with a particular 'experience'. Management needs to be focused on this as a goal, or it simply won't happen.

Another post mentioned that middle management at SF purchased parks often leaves after the buyout. That makes sense if the park was poorly run (I sure hope SF installs their own mgmt at Jazzland!) Haven't many of their takeovers been of underperforming parks? It's a troubling trend if the park was a strong performer.

Does SF have problems when they are #2 in a market? A number of their parks have no direct competition and its hard to miss the fact that SF has avoided Florida. Perhaps they've bit off more than they can easily digest in just a couple of years with SFWOA and its competition with CP.

Jeff, I wasn't saying people should accept poor staff, all I was saying that it's not only Six Flags that have bad staff.

I just think some people's "heaven & hell" comparison between Cedar Fair and Six Flags is very unfair and over generalized. Some people are comparing Cedar Fair's top park with one of Six Flags worst, and generalizing it to the whole chain. I have no quesiton that Cedar Point is better than SFWOA, but by saying Cedar Fair is better than Six Flags implies that Vallayfair or MiA is better than SFMM, SFGAm, SFFT, etc. which is bull.

I've been to all Cedar Fair's parks, and all Six Flags parks in North America except SFEG and SFDL. Yes, in general Cedar Fair parks have better staff and operations and cleaner parks, but Six Flags have better theming and landscaping, and more coasters. It just depends on where your priorities lie.

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Coaster Grotto - Save your Top 20 Coasters and Track Record Online!

I don't see anyone making any generalizations about the entire chain, and furthermore the whole issue is about the Cleveland market, where the consumers are presented with this choice. That's the whole point of this news item. The comparisons make perfect sense in the scope of the Cleveland market.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"Let's stop saying 'don't quote me,' because if no one quotes you, you probably haven't said a thing worth saying." - Dogma, KMFDM

Coaster131 said:

"Six Flags has some really bad customer service. Cedar Fair has excellent customer service.

Six Flags doesn't know what "clean" is. Cedar Fair knows exactly what it is.

Six Flags Sucks. Cedar Fair Rules. "

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If that's not a generalizaiton, I don't know what is.

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Coaster Grotto - Save your Top 20 Coasters and Track Record Online! *** This post was edited by Grant on 8/20/2002. ***

OK, so you're going to write off the entire thread because one kid's vocabulary consists of "sucks" and "rules?" That's a little short sighted. Most of us just ignore nonsense like that.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"Let's stop saying 'don't quote me,' because if no one quotes you, you probably haven't said a thing worth saying." - Dogma, KMFDM

MrVillain the hours on the web-site say the park is open 10-9 this was changed in late June.

All the park's brochures - one of which I read days before my August visit - clearly state hours of operation 10-10.

Regardless of 10-10 or 10-9, the park still posted hours of operation at its own entrance mind you, as 10-10 the day I was there. When rides began closing before 9 and especially X- Flight at 8:15 I wasn't the only one complaining at Guest Relations. The 20 other families there and I were told a "hand-out" was available upon entering the park on the reverse side of the show schedule!? Seriously, that was what I was told.

I don't go to shows so I didn't pick up a schedule and therefore didn't know the "rides" close at 9, but the rest of the park closed at 10: meaning gifts shops remained open. So, in fact, the park was open until 10 (again confusion with the web-site posting as well) but SFWOA decided to close rides at various time with no uniformity and/or clarity whatsoever.

I don't know about you but when park hours are 10-10 I assume rides are open until 10 as well. Disney advertises its hours as 10-10, but the gift shops remain open an hour later until 11; it is not part of the published "park operating hours" likewise for Cedar Point and every other customer related park.

Wow, I didn't know how many park experts were out there, lol!

The bottom line is that comparing the two parks is not as easy or clear as it might appear.

There is a different base of employees which makes a huge difference. Cedar Point obviously draws a more mature employee due to the housing availability. (Though they have their share of problems that just aren't as obvious to the guest.)

There is a different market of customers (which I don't think the Six Flags folks are addressing.) The niche for Geauga Lake was always the cheaper season passes and admission tickets as well as the smaller company picnics and I think they are pricing some of their potential market out of the mix.

There is a different product. I don't know of any park who has completely integrated a water park, an animal park and an amusement park. Yes, Sea World has a few rides but their core product is the sea life. Six Flags has been conducting a real time experiment at WoA and they have made some bad decisions.

The other factor, which I think is important, is that Cedar Fair's success has been as a result of Cedar Point and their corporate office is a few feet off the main midway. Yes, Mr. Kinzel visits all of the parks but his home is a few hundred yards from Cedar Point's main gate.

I think everyone would agree that WoA is not Six Flag's flagship park.

So far, I've been to four CF parks....Dorney, KBF, MiA, CP....to lump them all together into "Cedar Fair" is an injustice of epic proportions to the park that really deserves the credit, CP....MiA, the bathrooms were *disgusting*. Dorney, for the five hours we were there, was darn nice, but nowhere near CP...KBF, well I won't go there.....but it's NOT "safe to say" that all CF parks are alike, just like SF parks also vary WIDELY......

Well, I think the difference there is that the parks aren't marketed as Cedar Fair's Cedar Point, or Cedar Fair's Michigan Adventure. All the park are standing on there own. Six Flags has effectively marketed the brand and I say they are doing themselves an injustice by slapping their Six Flags name identified with a great park like Magic Mountain onto a park like Kentucky Kingdom.

Frankly, they are asking you to compare and associate all of their parks with each other. They had one campaign that said there is a Six Flags within a couple hours drive of 80% of the US population. Yeah, well driving to Darien Lake isn't going to be the same as driving to Fiesta Texas in terms of what you will find when you get there.

Wahoo: Let's see both SFDL and SFFT have a great coaster named Superman, a wonderful setting, and a craptastic woodie. They're a LOT alike IMO ;)

I'm just being a "pain" really, I get your point and wholehartedly agree. The one thing that pissed me off the most when I first started reading these boards was all the anti-Six Flags comments. Up until that time, the only SF parks I had been to were oG, MM, StL, and of course GAm, argueably in the "upper echelon" of the chain. When i got deeper into the posts, I realized that most were basing their opinions on the "new" SF parks like WoA and KK. I feel it's unfair to judge the whole chain by these parks.

But in the same breath, SFI *has* done this to themselves. It may have been more prudent to get these new parks "up to snuff" BEFORE rebranding them, a technique that they seem to be investigating with La Ronde, Enchanted Village and Jazzland.

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"To get inside this head of mine, would take a monkey-wrench, and a lot of wine" Res How I Do

2Hostyl, you are exactly right. If I buy the run down diner down the street from my house and slap the Friday's name on it, it doesn't necessarily mean it is going to be the Friday's we all expect.

I agree there are some great Six Flags out there, most of them having been great before Premier got into the mix. Premier then said, "hey...we now own the Six Flags name and we should slap it everywhere" and I think they diluted the brand.

They have done a lot of damage in a relatively short amount of time. Really, how else can you explain WoA? It was a moderately successful park before Premier bought it and now they can't do 12,000 guests on a weekend day, even with the massive additions they have made in the last two years. The only explanation is incompetence. I am sure Geauga Lake and Sea World, when operated separately, did well over 40,000 in combined attendance on a summer weekend.

It is hard for me to beleive that the ecrease in attendence is from that one line in that one comercial. Maybe it is just the whole idea of being offended by something like that is so... well so childish and stupid.

Personaly I think the attendance drop is ALL due to bad, no, horrible advertising and marketing in general. Look at it this way

Six Flags appeals mostly to teenagers- SF's biggest demographics are groups of young, hormonal, annoying teenagers (note that I am not saying that all teens are bad- just that they are annoying- there is a difference).

Now compare that to SeaWorld, a family atmosphere that appealed to families with children, mature adult couples, and elderly couples; basically everyone BUT teenagers.

So, when two parks are compined that appeal to different audiences it should be...? Well, disasterous as seen in attendance numbers so far. Six Flags refuses to reconize that the old SeaWorld audience is not returning, and I think that is happeneing because they don't know that they should.

All the commericals feature punk, or pop music about 'not wanting to grow up'- marketed directly to little teenagers. There was not a single Tiger Island commercial- people shouod have seen a commercial that interested them to get into the park and see the new Bengal tiger expereince. In any commerical, the animals are simply displayed as wonderous shows- instead of the educational exhibits that are actually in the park. SF's marking is horrible.

Personally I am still mad a Busch for selling SeaWorld. I wish that they had just sat on things for two years- and watched SFO go down- and then purchase them! THink of what a great park Busch could have made- a different kind of park not seen in Ohio already- one closer to Busch Gardens- featuring more culture and expereinces- and only a select handful of great rides. Instead we got Six Flags- who believe in tons of second rate attractions and service. I think it is a real shame. *** This post was edited by Delphinus on 8/20/2002. ***

I think the main reason for the decrease is no repeat business. Over and over again people are going to SFWOA and have to deal with the lack of customer service. They have now run this park for a few years and other than the new rides nothing else has improved. Its employees don't seem to want to be there why should the paying customer?

Delphinus said:

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Six Flags appeals mostly to teenagers- SF's biggest demographics are groups of young, hormonal, annoying teenagers (note that I am not saying that all teens are bad- just that they are annoying- there is a difference).

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Great, I'm glad you feel that way, since a large portion of the members here are "young, hormonal, annoying teenagers"...

Talk about generalizations...

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LocoBazooka--Sevendust, Nonpoint, Stereo Vent, Mushroomhead
Korn Tour (With no name)--Korn, Puddle of Mudd, Deadsy
*** This post was edited by CPgenius on 8/20/2002. ***

When SFWOA gets 3 steel coasters in the top ten then maybe they can debate they are better. LOL

One would think that the problems are because they are a new park but that's no excuse. IOA is a new park and they will bend over backwards to fix whatever problem you have. Go into Guest Services aat IOA and complain about something and you will get whatever you want as long as it is reasonable.

Phil - It's not only a lack of Customer service, in my opinion. It's also BAD customer service.

I will agree with with you the decrease is because of no repeate business. I won't go back until they treat the guests better.

It is so annoying to have the girl at the customer relations window to say "Too bad. Okay? Bie bie now." with a sarcastic smile on her face when one states a complaint.

I'm going to visit SFWoA tomorrow, and CP on Friday. It ought to be interesting.

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Goccvp1

Why don't we all step off the relentless "Six Flags sucks" bandwagon, people. It's not a bad park. Some very large transitions have occurred at the park in the last couple years and it will take time for Six Flags to clarify their mission and to find their niche in a highly competitive Ohio/Pennsylvania market.

Gosh! Lets give this a rest.

As far as Six Flags Worlds of Adventure goes the rides aren't bad its the park that sux. Its honestly the dirties park I have ever been too and everything is crushed together there is no breathing room, I personally only go there is I get free or really discounted tickets. I even use to work about 5 minutes down the road in Solon and still refused to pay to go to Six Flags WOA. I do however go to Cedar Point a few times a year usually go there atleast twice, the week after a big holiday the lines seem to be shorter than and then again in the fall around halloween, and sometimes more than that. See Cedar Point for the most part maybe a media ploy but they do have the best coasters in the World, most being record breakers in the past. and they do have a cleaner park and more spaced out then SFWOA. Lets face it Six Flags needs to hiring some cleaning crews then maybe there attendance may go up.