Six Flags revenue, attendance down from last year

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SF fans should take note of the $125M capital expenditures. I wonder if the expense of moving an existing ride from one park to another constitutes a capital expenditure. Either way, they have certainly slowed down their growth in that area. $125M across 39 parks is just over a $3M per park average. Clearly, the four largest parks will get more than $3M, but $3M of true capital expenditures isn't bad.

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I would only think a few million to move a ride from one place to another. The cheapest one to move would probally be the Texas Tornado which is a fairground model coaster so it can be rebuilt at another site within a fews days to a few weeks. I doubt that all the rides SF is claiming to be moving will be open in 2003. I just hope none of them goes to a scrap yard.

My question is how much are they spending on the Beemers?

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Chris Knight
"I'm so excited - It's an Arrow ride!"
On Sunday, Oct 27th 2002, I rode The Orient Express @ WOF 60 times.

Texas Tornado will probably be expensive to move because of all the trailers required. Read the recent topic about Intamin's Eurostar. If the ride wasn't rideable at Astroworld because of the trains, you may not see this ride erected again.
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If you want expensive rides, you're going to pay for them, in one way or another.

If you didn't see this coming I have got some land in the Everglades that I'd like to sell you.

"Let's not also forget the economy was & still is rather weak & consumer spending isn't what it was a year ago,so that also can factor into the equation,most folks just weren't up to travelling that much this season let alone spending lots of cash."

So how do you explain the positive results of Cedar Fair and small parks like Holiday World (wasn't it a 21% increase in attendance for them)? If people weren't traveling, then why weren't they going to their local Six Flags parks? That's their angle, remember... "So big, so close."

Why? Duh! It's customer service, stupid! You can build the greatest thrill rides ever, but if the experience sucks you won't get repeat visitors. Those of us who live in markets where we have choices aren't going to go back to the places that don't give us that good experience. I wish more than anything that they'd get their stuff together at my park, but year after year I don't see the improvement in operations. I'll try again next year, but will I be disappointed?

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Climbing as we fall, we dare to hold on to our fate, and steal away our destiny to catch ourselves with quiet grace" - The Stairs, INXS

How big a jump did Cedar point make this year with nearly a 9 million dollar investment. I do believe they just made the same attendance that they made last year and that was with no new coaster. I would like to have seen what they did this year without WT. CF is reporting a 3% increase for the whole company so who did not have a good year for CF then.

If its consumer service why is spending up at parks compared to last year, you would think if the customers did not like the park they would not spend money there.

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Army Rangers lead the way *** This post was edited by supermandl on 11/14/2002. ***

There is an easy way to raise the per cap. Raise prices. When you raise admission, parking, etc then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that your per cap is going to go up.

WS, Cedar point raised there tickets by $3 bucks this year how come there per cap was not raised? I'm no rocket scientist but if it works for one why didnt it work for the other.

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Army Rangers lead the way

Well, it is a little more complicated then I explained. How many group outings did CP have that included reduced admission tickets? I understand WoA has lost a lot of major group outings.

How many discounted admissions were associated with Resort Hotel Package Discounts? The Resorts had another gangbuster year. How many season passholders are there at CP versus WoA?

Bottom line, a drop in attendance but a rise in per cap leads me to believe that higher prices explain it. A flat increase in attendance but lower per cap can have a thousand explanations.

Hey hey! I *am* a rockect scientist (as are others on this board), but I think it is fair to assume that the reduction/elimination of admission discounts (which coincidentally led to decreased attendance) and the offering of new merchandice (the "wonderful" Lo-Q) significantly boosted the in park spending.

Then Jeff shat out: "Those of us who live in markets where we have choices aren't going to go back to the places that don't give us that good experience. "

You know, it is *very* curious to me why SFWoA is NOT performing well. Many of the complaints that I read about SFWoA (dirty, lazy ops, horrible capacity, etc...) are the same complaints that I read "ON COASTER BOARDS" about SFA. Then you have 2002 where 2 of the 3 closest competitors of each park add major attractions (CP & PKI with KW silent and PKD & HP with BGW silent). However, SFA has managed to post an attendance increase while SFWoA is dragging the chain down. Something is VERY wrong with the Cleveland park. I sure as hell hope that SFI figures it out *quick*.

lata, jeremy

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"To get inside this head of mine, would take a monkey-wrench, and a lot of wine" Res How I Do

It is fairly obvious why SFWoA is having problems. They are operating and staffing, basically, two parks that are only getting the attendance of one park. Separately, Sea World and Geauga Lake pulled in twice the number of people that SFWoA is pulling in now.

Why the decrease in attendance? Jeff got it right. Customer Service. It was never outstanding during the Funtime, Geauga Lake days but it was better than it is today. One train operations on coasters because they cut staffing. Dirty midways and restrooms because they cut staffing. Unhappy staff that are overworked because they cut staffing. Why cut staffing? They weren't hitting their budget.

If the new coaster doesn't happen, which it appears will be the case, I think they should shut down the Wild Life side for the summer. I've heard that they might lose the whale if it doesn't get a companion. I say keep on a minimal animal care staff and throw all of your resources into the Wile Rides side. Get that side operating properly this next season and get your coaster over to the Wild Life side next year. That will bring people back over there.

It may be extreme and it may be an admittance of a mistake but it might save the park in the long term.

A friend and member of this site worked in maintenance last year and while it wouldn't be proper for me to tell his stories, the overall theme is pretty much what you expect. Do as little as possible, run as little as possible, do as little preventative maintenance as possible as long as the rides are safe.

The one saving grace at the park is that their animal attractions appear to be run by people who care very much about the animals. Some of their facilities are, however, inadequate (and that's the opinion of my wife and her other biologist friends, not mine).

I love Batman and Villain. I really do. It kills me to see them maintainted and run so poorly. Those two rides, more than anything else there, cause me to want that park to succeed.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Climbing as we fall, we dare to hold on to our fate, and steal away our destiny to catch ourselves with quiet grace" - The Stairs, INXS

That hasn't changed since the Funtime days! Preventative what?

Maybe the recent report will cause a shake up of upper management and we "may" see some changes. I was holding my breath waiting to see how bad the common stock price would react to this news. I still say this company has the potential to return to glory (in stock price that is, crossing my fingers). Anyone else jump in PKS when it had it's drop?

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supermandl said:

How big a jump did Cedar point make this year with nearly a 9 million dollar investment....CF is reporting a 3% increase for the whole company so who did not have a good year for CF then.

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But there's more to CP than park attendance....there's 'who came to visit' and 'who stayed overnight'. Lodging revenues were up this year at the park.

No park in the CF chain had a bad year. While there were no massive new surges in attendance, no one had big drops either. VF was down less than 1% but hasn't had a single new ride since 2000.

Frankly, CF doesn't need to have 15%-25% attendance increases because they're profitable at the existing levels. Six Flags Inc is not.

-'Playa

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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.

Let me ask you this would the attendance been the same as last year if they did not have a 9 million dollar investment in a coaster that seems to have drawn no extra customers. My whole point was I bet CP would not have had a break even year(attendance I'm talking about) if not for the the new coaster would the profits have been the same without out it.

As for the lodging revenues are up because in the last 2 years in improvements to the lighthouse hotel and 50 new cottages and 59 new campsites or do those not count for helping the lodging out.

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Army Rangers lead the way *** This post was edited by supermandl on 11/14/2002. ***

Playa-

Certain parks of the Six Flags chain aren't. There are the leaders of the chain and the others that drag them down.

Supermandl-

The rates at the hotels go up every year which accounts for some of the increase. While the resorts generally run at capacity during the bulk of the season, the shoulder seasons (May and Sept-Oct) certainly have an impact. If the weather is decent, the hotels can do really well at those times. *** This post was edited by wahoo skipper on 11/14/2002. ***

The fact that seems to be lost on SFI (if not supermandl) is that coasters do not necessarily equal profits or even attendance peaks. CP spent $9 million on a coaster that wasn't shockingly different from one at a competing park an hour away. SFWOA recently dunked $15 million on a rather unique flying coaster and got stomped that year by a park introducing a little green family coaster and a recycled flume with cartoon characters (PKI). They beat up CP that year too if it's any comfort--but it proves the point that it's the experience, not the rides themselves.

As far as individual SF parks being profitable...sure they are. The closest one to me is a freakin' gold mine (SFGAM-huge city, no competitors, crowded forever) but the chain as a whole has never turned a profit.

-'Playa

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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.

*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 11/14/2002. *** *** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 11/14/2002. ***

I've been saying for a couple of years that Cedar Point will likely stay in the 3.0-3.3 million range for a very long time. I don't think they can get much higher, so adding attractions will maintain numbers, not increase them.

For that reason, it's not a valid comparison to Six Flags, especially Six Flags as a company. I didn't see it in the press release, but if they factored the numbers in with the acquisitions, the results are even worse.

I do think the stock will bounce back, but it's too early to say when. 4th quarter will still have year-end bad news, so that won't be it. I'd guess a good time to buy would be in the first half of the year, then hope that they've got it together enough to see year-over-year improvement.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Climbing as we fall, we dare to hold on to our fate, and steal away our destiny to catch ourselves with quiet grace" - The Stairs, INXS

Thats a totally crazy statement that coasters do not affect attendance and profits, so no one went to ride MF or Goliath or Superman because they where new coaster's in there parks.

Once again I ask you which you did not answer would the attendance have been the same without this new coaster, or did this coaster save them from haveing a down year in attendance. It seems Jeff has answered the question they have to put in coaster to maintain the 3 million mark so without this new coaster it would have been a lower attendance figure.

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Army Rangers lead the way

*** This post was edited by supermandl on 11/14/2002. ***

You are correct supermandl that coasters do have an effect on park attendance, especially when they are major rides such as MF. However, as CoastaPlaya was trying to point out, sometimes investments in attractions have to be made merely to maintain current attendance levels, and to avoid losing attendance to competeing parks. Wicked Twister is clearly one of these investments. It is a smaller coaster with a focus on two things. 1.) Coaster count and 2.) maintaining the level of attendance for 2002 until a bigger investment (current mystery ride?) could bring about a MF style attendance peak.

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For at some point, there is no looking back.
-Sun-tzu Liao *** This post was edited by Glory of Kilrah on 11/14/2002. ***