SFWoA. Whats the latest on the whales?

When we do our best to destroy an entire species, it's our obligation to make up for that, Tambo.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

Orcas are not captured and forced into captivity, at least in America and most major countries. I would say at least 90% of Orcas are bredd in captivity, where they live full, safe lives. You can't release them, they can't socialize or hunt, and the argument could be made you can't make them not mate. To do that would be making them into a trained circus animal by taking away one of the few freedoms and drives that they have in captivity. Having animals as amazing as whales can only hope the undiscovered frontier of the world, the ocean.

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- GeaugaDog
Ain't Nuthin but the Dog in me..

Make that about 35% and growing GeaugaDog. Orcas aren't like dogs that live for about 10 years. Many of the orcas in captivity range around 25 years old, older than some posters on this board. It's a given that if SFWoA can't find another mate for Shauka, that she will be shipped to a Sea World Park (possibly Texas with Florida having such a successful breeding program that they are have had to move a few animals to California). Also keep in mind that these marine parks with relatively small tanks where built in the 70's and possibly early 80's...long before people began to realize that these were very intelligent sophisticated animals that they were caging up so badly. SWoT and SWoF were built later on with larger tanks that can accomodate over half a dozen individuals.

*** This post was edited by astrofreak 2/15/2003 11:02:33 AM ***

Actually, it looks like out of the 47 known Orcas in captivity, 24 or a little over 51% were in fact bred in captivity. Although that number will fluctuate some. Shouka though was born in 1993 in captivity. Keiko actually is no longer penned in, but living in a fjord in Norway. He does travel and has learned to feed himself, making a 1000 mile journey from Iceland to Norway, arrivinf in Norway in the same health condition as he left Iceland. This seems to conclude that while he is not completely independant of humans, he has learned to feed himself and survive in the wild somewhat, a good sign of things to come for all Orcas.

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- GeaugaDog
Ain't Nuthin but the Dog in me..

If Six Flags has the breeding loan, why would she be shipped to a Sea World park to breed? Wouldnt she just be shipped back to France?

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SFWoA TL 2003!

No, this country wouldn't send her back to somewhere where it would be worse from her.

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For the sake of yourself, don't take anything I say seriously.

Word from inside the park is that without a second whale to breed with the one in WOA, it will be sent back to its original home. Hence the ungency to get a mate in town.

And yes i do see this as a "trend". SW to the best of my knowledge was modeled as a marine life park, without rides. Now every SW has rides. And the parks will continue to look toward theme park type rides. It seems that Junior doesn't care to much for the parks, and if he doesn't sell them all they will definately drift toward the Busch Gardens product. After all while SW has produced a decent product over the years, it's still a waining wing of the amusement industry. The marine park in Ohio was clearly on a decline. Some may try to chalk it up to poor management, but that can only be contributed to speeding up the process. The company felt that there was little to be done so they bailed. If SF didn't step in and buy the park how long do you think that BEC would run it at a loss. People aren't looking to spend forty bucks on a water zoo. Look at what SWO did their last season, buy a ticket opening weekend and get a seasons pass! That's really a sign of a healthy entertainment park.
*** This post was edited by meangene 2/18/2003 12:32:33 AM ***

Wait, how are marine parks waning? What do you base your opinion on? You seem to be implying that because the Ohio park was sold, all of the parks weren't doing well.

The Ohio park did fine, but it suffered from one problem the others didn't... they had to feed and care for animals year-round without people paying admission at the gate everyday. Perhaps in the old days that was a reasonable arrangement, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of animals in that park doubled through the late 80's and 90's.

Furthermore, I'd contend that the other parks added rides to broaden their appeal beyond the "family" standard. That's growing the business, not making up for a shortfall. As rollergator mentioned, you can walk on Kraken while the shows are often filled, the core audience is still not a ride audience.

In fact, they were so intent on growing the business in Orlando that they opened up a "premium" park next door, one without any rides at all.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

I obviously know nothing about the SWO financials, but whenever I went to the park, it had a good crowd. The shows were full, all the food places were open, and the atmosphere of the park was lively. It was a very NICE park, very well run, and it provided quality entertainment for it's guests. Whatever problems Busch had to make them decide to sell was not apparent, the park was always first rate.

I think marine life parks are very entertaining, and very different from going to a zoo.

I agree that the product is different from a zoo. But some general public impressions aren't very different. Most people don't disect a park like people around here.

All seasonal park garner large debts during the offseason. Even if there aren't animals to feed. Emplyoee wages, winterizing units, tearing down and rebuilding rides, capital improvements all come along with the package. Yes SWO had to feed animals, but they didn't have to do any repair/upkeep on rides. Now i'm sure that everyone will make a statement on the cost of feeding animals, but then i ask how does the zoo do it? Especially when the average zoo is less than half the gate for SW. The whole SWO failed because of the seasons should have been appearent in the first decade of operation. There were more factors in its demise. The park ran at losses during the summer for at least the last year or two and attendance was plummeting. SFO beat it in 2000!!! GLP had never been anywhere near it before.

As for the rest of the parks, well rumor has it that the Texas park is up for sale. And while not confirmed it seems to be a possibilty.

How can any park not have any success in central FLA?

Employees from BEC talk about Busch Jr and his disfavor for the SW parks like it's common knowledge.

And i would argue that the addition of amusement type rides/attractions are the reasons you see continued growth or stabilized attendance numbers. NOT just coasters, but 3-D movies, motion sims, and other "traditional" type amusement park attractions. It is my understanding that SW was started with shows and animal exibits for preservation and education, somehting they do VERY well. But the lack of excitment created by the product anymore and general backlash recieved from groups like PETA have forced the park to look to new avenues to bring in crowds.

Which is good. A park (all parks) have to grow and adapt and accept new ideas to stay competitive. If not you get SWO. I'm just saying that a marine life only super zoo isn't going to draw the crowds. They need other forms of entertainment to attract a larger market, which is exactly what they are doing.

So basically your waning theory is based on a strong feeling and a rumor then, is that what you're saying?

Groups like PETA have absolutely zero impact on the Busch parks. Nobody outside of like-minded people in SoCal take them seriously.

You say that the "product" doesn't create excitement. Wow, I beg to differ. I've seen the "product" pack in the families at far smaller marine venues like the Oregon Coast or Baltimore aquariums (the latter of which has the largest dolphin tank in the world, and it sells out constantly).

Zoos are a different story, and more often than not non-profit entities. Our zoo here in Cleveland (owned and operated by the local park district) is the crown jewel of the park system, and attracts people year-round. It, like many similar institutions (i.e., museums), also receive giant grants from the local corporate citizens.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM
*** This post was edited by Jeff 2/18/2003 1:18:56 PM ***

Agreed Jeff....I live 6 blocks from the Baltimore Aquarium, and volunteer there as an assistant aquarium technician. (I keep reef aquariums with live corals, etc.) Even in the offseason, the place is VERY busy, and the marine mammal pavilion is very full often. But in the summer, you should see the lines to get into the place!!!!! It's become so crowded they are more than doubling the size of the place for 2005...including a new Australian exhibit with big reef exhibits, saltwater crocs, etc... :) :)

You should see the kids fighting to see the giant tank of Rays...it's a very exciting place and it is bursting at the seams with popularity. The dolphin show is packed now more than ever, because we had 3 births last year :)

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- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson
*** This post was edited by Peabody 2/18/2003 1:30:19 PM ***

I'll be in that neighborhood again Easter weekend for a volleyball tournament at the convention center. Haven't been to the aquarium since 1999, would like to visit again.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM

The Baltimore Aquarium is great, a good setting and nice atmosphere. I was there in 8th grade and loved it so much I want to go back again.

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The only difference between stupidity and genius is genius has limitations.

Peabody, I'm jealous now. I have one marine tank at home (although on a much smaller scale -- live rock and live sand, no corals. Although I've got purple and pink coralline algae exploding all over the place :) )

The Baltimore Aquarium is indeed amazing. I haven't been there since 1998 or thereabouts.

As others have already said, there's a huge difference between zoos (which are open year-round, are nonprofit and receive donations and grants, and so on) and private enterprises like the Sea World parks.

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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"Friendship -- more lasting than love, more legal than stalking."
*** This post was edited by GregLeg 2/18/2003 2:26:15 PM ***

My in-laws live between Baltimore and DC, and somehow we've never been to the aquarium. I'll have to put it on my must-visit list. The problem is that there are so many cool things to do there that we still haven't gotten to even a small fraction of them with the kids. As the kids get older, should get easier.

While we're on aquaria, there are two on the left coast that are great, and also draw big crowds: Monterey and Scripps (part of UCSD, in San Diego). Both are awesome. The Pittsburgh Zoo has a very nice aquarium that's worth a visit. I've also been to the North Carolina aquarium on Roanoke Island. Not as impressvie, but some neat educational exhibits on the ecology of the outer banks region.

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http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~bnoble/

Jeff: Sent you an email about getting into the aquarium for free :)

Greg: Awesome.....you know, many corals are super easy if you do it right. My tank at home is all SPS hard corals, giant clams, etc....it's really fun :) Let me know if I can help you out....maybe you can learn from some of my mistakes :) I'm always happy to help ....you know... I actually know an importer of clams and corals, etc. in West Mifflin that isn't well known, and offer much better and cheaper stuff than most local stores!

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- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson

Oddest place for an Aquarium and oddest name? Gatlinburg, Tennessee's Ripley's Aquarium of the Smokies or something like that. An aquarium in the mountains. I guess it is pretty popular though.

Sea World Ohio was a surprise sleeper on my top five list for most beautiful well-kept parks before the sale. That park was second only to Busch Gardens Williamsburg, in my opinion, for beauty, cleanliness, service, etc.

As far as the product creating excitement, I saw the Shamu show a thousand times and got chills each and every time the orca entered the stadium for a show.

There is no way that anyone can argue that the gate revenue brought in by the Cleveland Zoo during the winter at all offsets the costs of operation. They are open simply because it creates some revenue instead of none. Furthermore i don't think ANY zoo that i've been to would ever run at a profit, they just don't command the same sort of ticket price that an amusement park can demand.

I've never claimed that SW is a bad product. Quite the opposte, they run a marine park well. I just feel that most people aren't out to spend that kind of money at a marine park. Just from talking to people around me and that i know. The failure of SWO at least points to the lack of support in the Northern Ohio area. And the movement toward theme park type attractions show to me that the parks need to create more of a draw to stay in competition. The whale isn't enough. It's still the bread and butter for the park, but it doesn't seem to be enough to keep it going. There is no marine only park that can draw three mil that i know of any more. There isn't any that does at this point. Yes a small operation can be well supported and will seem quite full becasue it is a small place, but this Oregon Coast or any other small marine park will be just that, small. Unless of course they expand into other venues. Because while there is a market for marine parks and marine exibits it's not enough for something the size of say SW, because SW isn't just a marine park anymore.

Perhaps i should have been more specific in my comments. A park that wants to be in the game with places like CP, Six Flags, Busch Gardens or Disney can't do so on just marine life alone anymore. It doesn't draw on it's own like the mouse or cosaters or other amusement park stuff.

But you're missing the point. Most zoos don't need the gate. As we said, they're funded in part by public money and corporate donations.

It's fine that you "feel that most people aren't out to spend that kind of money at a marine park," but I still don't understand what you base that opinion on. I think you're still making generalizations about all of the SeaWorld parks based on the Cleveland park. Aside from being seasonal (this is assuming in the first place that the park "failed," which I'm not entirely ready to do), it also had to contend with the fact that in the same market you had a world-class zoo at less than a third of the cost.

To look at Orlando, where they compete with the rat, I'd say they're doing very well for themselves, and it's not because of Kraken. After walking on to that ride (not to mention Journey to Atlantis), I watched the whale venue, huge as it is, filled to at least 75%... in November. And as I mentioned earlier, Discovery Cove had no rides.

Like I said, based on my observations, the addition of a few rides is to expand the business, not a survival tactic, as you imply.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"The world rotates to The Ultra-Heavy Beat!" - KMFDM