Ron Toomer vs. Dana Morgan
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good work, chris. See, these "non-coaster folks" say we're JUST playing around when we're doing our coaster *work*, they don't realize just HOW much effort we put in.
It's not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle....
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dexter said:
Wow, You guys have NO respect for the man who started it all. Can't you say ONE nice thing about the man. Give him at least a little credit. Some of his rides are STILL great after all these years. What if he were reading this topic.
Just a little credit?
I respect Mr. Toomer. He has done some great work for the amusement park industry. I enjoy Arrow rides, even Toomer's first masterpiece.
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Jeff said: I was about to say... Toomer did what he could with the tools he had available at the time
It was Toomer's inability to change *with* technology that was the problem. He stuck with the same crappy trains, same crappy transitions, and same cookie-cutter transitions. That's just laziness when it comes to designing coasters. As I pointed out, as B&M were emerging with new rides in Kumba and B:TR, Arrow was still stuck in the 70's, essentially just creating larger versions of the same rides they'd always built. Toomer was pretty much responsible for Arrow's problems, especially since some of his largest mistakes were stupidly made by being lazy. It's just funny how Schwarzkopf was able to create smooth and unique layouts at the same time Toomer was creating his cookie-cutter corkscrews (which brings us to...)
CoastaPlaya said: Except Anton wasn't being asked to build 140-150 foot tall multiloopers, so we really can't compare apples to apples.
Schwarzkopf built Mindbender in 1985 - it's 145' tall.
-Nate
*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 on 7/2/2002. ***
Yah, compare an Arrow LoopScrew to Sooperdooperlooper. (or any Schwarzkopf of that time) I pick Sooperdooperlooper. It's smooth. Apple Vs. Orange? I think not. I say Dirty Bruised Apple (excuse the pun)Vs. Clean Fresh Apple.
Besides what's wrong with comparing apples and oranges, I like apples better than oranges.
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Why do they report power outages on TV?
*** This post was edited by S00perGIR on 7/2/2002. ***
coasterdude318: Lazy? Ron Toomer was lazy? I'm sorry, did you work with him? I'm guessing no since you were 7 when Magnum opened.
Arrow has a serious roller coaster financial history. For them to change everything about their technology at the time wouldn't have made any financial sense. Think about it, after the cost for materials, a coaster manufacturer gets whatever is left. What money did they have for R&D? After failing to sell a pipeline (or even finish the research for it), and ditching the Virginia Reel design, there was no reason to overhaul the design unless some park was going to pay for it. They couldn't afford to do it if they wanted to.
In the years since, they've done quite a bit of R&D on new product, like the Mad Mouse, 4D and Arrowbatic. They haven't sold an Arrowbatic, the 4D very nearly killed the company (and might still).
Things are a lot more complex than someone being "lazy," my young friend.
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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"We used to hate people, now we just make fun of them. It's more effective that way." - KMFDM, "Dogma"
Brad, who would most certainly be Schwarzkopf Guy if Arrow didn't exist. Love those intense loops and laterals!
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BuzzCon Frequent Flyer, responsible for guests fleeing the queue in horror!
Model coasters and rides
coasterdude318 said:
CoastaPlaya said: Except Anton wasn't being asked to build 140-150 foot tall multiloopers, so we really can't compare apples to apples.
Schwarzkopf built Mindbender in 1985 - it's 145' tall.-Nate
Hee hee hee hee. Now it gets even funnier....Why? Because Schwarzkopf--much as I love his coasters--built the Mindbender with nothing but the same ol' vertical loops he built umpteen times before. His idea of compensating for the additional forces exerted by the height was to make teeny-weeny little 12 passenger trains. Imagine standing in line on a hot summer day for that. You can see why park after park opted for Ron Toomer's 'disasters' instead.
If Ron Toomer was a one-trick pony, Anton had one less trick. At least Arrow gave longer, higher capacity trains a try. At least they attempted variations on the vertical loop and corkscrew helix.
You can call the coasters whatever you want....but one thing you cannot call Mr. Toomer is lazy. Lazy folks don't build prototypes like the Bat or the Pipeline. Lazy folks don't build custom layouts. Frankly, unless you're John Ivers, you don't have the right to call anyone lazy. We have yet to see you design a go-kart, my friend--much less a full-circuit coaster .
-'Playa
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 7/2/2002. ***
Excuse me...less than a one-trick pony, low capacity. ROLF!!! LOL!!!!!!
First, just because one Schwarzkopf coaster has 3 cars trains doesn't mean all of them do. Most of Schwarzkopf's boost an incredible capacity.
Second, Schwarzkopf did great with the vertical loop, proving all of those other inverisons aren't necessary to have a fun and intense ride. All of my experiences on a Schwarzkopf "less than one trick pony" kick-ass ride have been far better than any of Arrow's "variation" loopers.
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*** This post was edited by The Shy One on 7/2/2002. ***
You didn't hear me say I preferred Arrow to Schwarzkopf. CBaby's first adult coaster was a Schwarzkopf. Da Midget's first looping coaster was a Schwarzkopf. My 99th coaster was a Schwarzkopf. I'm waiting for the Texas Tornado to reopen (hopefully) and won't bother visiting any Texas SF park until it does.
What I am saying is that Ron Toomer can't be faulted for trying --without all the number-crunching power available today--to push the envelope. Everyone else had problems building the taller, loopier coasters parks demanded, too.
-'Playa
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya on 7/2/2002. ***
Anton had loops, simple as that. Arrow on the other hand gave us, the Cobra Roll, Butterfly, Corkscrew,Dive Loop, Etc Etc
All of these elements are around today in B and M, Intamin, and Vekoma coasters.
Toomer at least came up with these ideas. The problem with Toomer is that Arrow did not know how to bend steel worth a darn.
No doubt that Toomer and Swartzkof both revolutionized the industry. To bash one or the other is pointless.
Look at the coasters out there right now, there are more Arrows out there then anything else. I think that speaks volumes in itself.
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The Beast and Night, They go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly
It speaks that there weren't other alternatives available.
I admire Schwarzkopf because he created unique layouts and was able to create smooth rides. Arrow really did neither (not with their loopers, anyway).
Ron Toomer lazy? Yes. He's lazy for using cookie-cutter inversions. He's lazy because he didn't figure turns on a suspended coaster should be banked. He's lazy because he couldn't figure out that upstop plates would be bad on an airtime machine.
I do have respect for some of the things Arrow did, but not for Ron Toomer himself."
-Nate
There were Schwarzkopfs available. Why does almost every park have an Arrow but very few have a Schwarzkopf?
BTW Gemeni still runs today with Upstop plates and it has plenty of air, as for Magnum it wasn't that big of a deal. All the Suspendeds after The Bat ran and still run fine and are smooth as ever, he got the banking figured out there. The suspended coaster was probably the most revolutionary coaster concept to date. Everything about it was completely new excpet for the track which is pretty regular. Toomer even designed inversions for the suspended but none were ever built.
As for not having any original layouts check out Vortex sometime.
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The Beast and Night, They go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly
Sorry Jeff I don't exactly spell Schwarzkopf everyday and I had to copy and paste to say it that time.
*** This post was edited by MagnumForce on 7/2/2002. ***
Could you butcher the name just a little more? My God, it was spelled correctly a dozen times just before your post!
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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"We used to hate people, now we just make fun of them. It's more effective that way." - KMFDM, "Dogma"
Most of you Toomer bashers talk like you personally know the guy. Like you have any idea, aside from what you read, what the man is all about. I am very thankful that he provided the imagination and ingenuity that has inspired other desingers throughout the industry
I'm not saying he is anything like Walt Disney, but he is so much closer to being like Disney than me or ANY of you.
Just my opinion.
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KoRn is the Mellennium Force of ROCK
*** This post was edited by dexter on 7/3/2002. ***
coasterdude318:
If Ron Toomer worked three hour work days and then went home and watched TV, I would call him lazy. If he didn't vacuum his carpets when they needed to be vacuumed, I would call him lazy. But to call him lazy because "he didn't figure turns on a suspended coaster should be banked" and because "he couldn't figure out that upstop plates would be bad on an airtime machine?" That's not laziness, that's called trial and error due to the fact that he was helping blazing new trails.
I am not a huge fan of Arrow's larger multi-element coasters, and I can't say that I particularly enjoyed Magnum as much as I thought I would when I rode it a few weeks ago. But there are many Arrow rides that I love- Gemini, Nessie, BBW, etc. Regardless of whether you love or hate Arrow coasters, you cannot deny the impact that Ron Toomer, as well as Arrow as a whole, has had on this industry.
To debate his decisions when it came to furthering Arrow's technology is one thing, to call him lazy because he didn't bank turns properly is just stupid.
"Lazy" is not at all appropriate.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Yeah, I particularly liked his rather, uh, frank comments about Drachen Fire.
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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"We used to hate people, now we just make fun of them. It's more effective that way." - KMFDM, "Dogma"
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