Raven's train

Saturday, November 16, 2002 2:49 PM
I was watching Top Ten Coasters 2001, the edition in which Raven is #1 and I saw some conflicting scenes and I'd like to know what the real answer is. In one scene I saw buzzbars on the train but during the play-by-play they were individual ratcheting lap bars. What happened?

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SFNE Central- Online Six Flags New England Resource
http://sfne.com
Devoted Intamin Lover for Life!

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:13 PM
They are ratcheted and have always been I think.
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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:15 PM
No, if you have Top Ten 2001 go watch it.

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SFNE Central- Online Six Flags New England Resource
http://sfne.com
Devoted Intamin Lover for Life!

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:19 PM
It used to have buzz bars, but in 99 or 00 the trains were redone.

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- Peabody

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:22 PM

You can see them here:

http://sfne.com/images/ravenbuzz.jpg

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SFNE Central- Online Six Flags New England Resource
http://sfne.com
Devoted Intamin Lover for Life!

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:22 PM
Ok, thanks for the response.

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SFNE Central- Online Six Flags New England Resource
http://sfne.com
Devoted Intamin Lover for Life!

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:00 AM
Raven with buzzbars?! Oh my gosh! I thought the airtime was wicked now!

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I was asked to describe X in one word. The word? -- OhmygoshwhathaveIgottenmyselfintothisisthescariest
thingintheworldhelpmeIamgoingtodieAHHHH!!!

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:05 AM
The buzz bars were taken off Raven in 2000 when Legend opened. I still love the Raven, but the 5th drop with buzzbars in the back seat was amazing!! I still miss the buzzbars, but overall its an amazing ride.
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Sunday, November 17, 2002 3:26 PM
RavenMaven if you see this, why did they remove the buzz bars?
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Sunday, November 17, 2002 4:07 PM
Insurance company is my understanding.
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Sunday, November 17, 2002 6:10 PM
I have a guess...

The spin, and what Paula might tell us here, is that there is an insurance benefit to the new lap bars. Personally, I don't think that terribly likely given the geometry of the new bars versus the old ones...it would be a lot easier to lose a rider with the ratcheting bars.

I suspect that the lap bars may be implicated in the "reliability issues" that led Holiday World to choose Gerstlauer trains for the Legend. After all, that's the one thing that changed about the PTC trains that might have eliminated the "concerns" about the PTC trains and prompted Holiday World to go with two PTCs for Legend instead of several cheaper options.

But that's only a guess... :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:56 AM

SteveWoA said:
RavenMaven if you see this, why did they remove the buzz bars?


It was a strong recommendation from CCI (as was going with the G-train for The Legend). They told us the individual lap bars were safer...it's sort of difficult to turn your back on that sort of recommendation.

And for Dave...I abhor the use of the word "spin," as to me it means lying or otherwise misleading the public. It's not my style and it's not the Kochs' style. We did not want to go to individual lap bars, but when our coaster manufacturer recommended it as a safer alternative, it was the right thing to do. When I see a large adult riding with a small child, the use of individual lap bars certainly appears to have been the right choice.

Thanks, Paula

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Paula Werne
Holiday World PR
www.holidayworld.com/srm

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:09 AM
Paula, I understand your point completely, and given the current climate, the word 'spin' is probably not the best one to use. I do not wish to suggest that you have ever been misleading or in any way dishonest with us, your fans...or with anybody else, for that matter. I was not attempting to insult; my apologies if I did! :)

(user turns to the assembled group) Let me put it another way: All parks, including Holiday World, make operational decisions which are percieved by the park to be in the park's best interest. When necessary, for instance when well-meaning enthusiasts get excessively nosy, it is the role of the PR staff to explain the decision in question in a clear, honest manner, whenever possible demonstrating how the decision is also in the best interest of the customer. My point is that being clear and honest does not necessarily require being complete, as there is a whole lot about any business which, quite frankly, is none of ours as observers. I think most of us understand this, and I know that Paula does, because if she didn't she would not be able to participate in this forum!

One comment I have to take issue with, though. Paula said:
"When I see a large adult riding with a small child, the use of individual lap bars certainly appears to have been the right choice."

I take issue with this comment because it appears to perpetuate a myth about shared lap bars. Well, it might be true at Disneyland, but we're talking about a PTC coaster car here. The myth, of course, is that the lap bar adjusts to the largest person in the seat. With the old PTC single-position bars, this was simply not true. Single position means exactly that, and small children are retained by that single bar in exactly the same manner whether they are riding with a small person or with a large person. I know everybody here is aware of this point, but the fact that ride safety advocates elsewhere have made such a big point of perpetuating the big rider/little kid myth demands a basic comment. I think Paula is right, that it probably was the right decision for Holiday World, but I want to try and be a little precise. :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:36 AM

RideMan said: The myth, of course, is that the lap bar adjusts to the largest person in the seat. With the old PTC single-position bars, this was simply not true. .


But can't the single lap bar snug down to a small child's lap? That's what I meant...a somewhat tentative child can cinch that individual lap bar down tight. There was not such an option with the single bar.

Paula

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Paula Werne
Holiday World PR
www.holidayworld.com/srm

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Monday, November 18, 2002 1:08 PM
I am by no means an expert here, but there are 2 kinds of "shared" lapbars.

The buzzbars that were formerly on Raven are as Dave describes them, "single position." Meaning there is only one closed position, reguardless of rider size. Closed is closed, and open is open. Phoenix at Knoebles has these type of bars.

The "shared lapbar" that is a multiple position (not sure exactly what those are called) like on Big Thunder and most so called "mine rides" are the ones that a child could be more snug if the adult was not there. Raven never had these.

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Nothing... NOTHING... can prepare you for... the Fourth Dimension!

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Monday, November 18, 2002 1:11 PM

Even with the individual lapbars, at Predator @ SFDL at the tightiest position they are still about 6 inches away from your lap and about ten inches away from my 5 year old brothers lap.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 1:12 PM

Raven Maven why to CCI suggest the G trains in the first place? I realize you guys had to approve it first but why did they suggest it?

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As the coasters get bigger so do the queue lines

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Monday, November 18, 2002 1:41 PM

I said: The myth, of course, is that the lap bar adjusts to the largest person in the seat. With the old PTC single-position bars, this was simply not true. .

Paula replied: But can't the single lap bar snug down to a small child's lap? That's what I meant...a somewhat tentative child can cinch that individual lap bar down tight. There was not such an option with the single bar.



(All this quoting is bad form, but I think probably a Good Thing™ in this case)

Absolutely correct, I think. With the (current)individual lap bars, the kids can pull the lap bar down to within 6" of the seat cushion if they so choose, while with the (original) shared bar all they could do was hang on tight. 'Course individual seat belts with the long bar might have been a Good Idea™ not only for the tentative kids but also for the paint on the side of the train. Those were also installed in 2000. :)

The point is exactly as Soggy put it, and the implications of that are far beyond the specifics of this discussion. Paula's point, regarding the individual bars, is also true, and in the case of Holiday World...which, in spite of its tremendous standing among enthusiasts, still manages to cater largely to an audience filled with small children (lucky kids!)...points out why the change on the Raven was probably the right thing to do.

(Of course, what surprised me this season was that I didn't miss the grab handles on the outsides of the Gerstlauer train on the Legend...amazing what a few inches of padding can do!)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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