Question about The Beasts

CPGenius:

Even if you disagree with people, it is a matter of taste.  Some people are airtime whores, and that is all.  Not that there is anything wrong with that. 

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Kicking screamin' Gucci little siggy.

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RailsBum said:
Son of Beast sucks.  It is a abusively rough ride, and it is boring.  One hill, two helixes, loop, two helixes, two small drops and a brake run. 

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I don't think your last line means anything whatsoever. Ever heard of drop, overbanked turn, camelback, two overbanked turns, two camelbacks, overbanked turn, brake run? Sounds pretty boring, huh? Well, it's also known as Millennium Force. And you forgot the first drop on your SOB description. I left out turns because you did.

Honestly, I think SOB has an excellent "plot". Great Introduction- drop out of the station; Rising Action- big drop; Climax- Loop; Falling Action- Double Helix(especially if it was enclosed); Conclusion- hop into station(without a doubt my favorite brake run under MF, you can definitely feel the air there).

I had a great time on both of the beasts and the Beastie as well. The 4 wooeden coasters in that park are their best coasters in my opinion and that's all that matters to me.

Indiana Beach - One Man's Story

The only reason Beast gets very much attention because its the longest wooden coaster in the world, 3 tunnels and one hell of a strong helix. I think its one of the best Woodens I have ridden but I still have not ridden some of the really good wooden coasters rated by people today. Beast at night though is hard to beat, IMO.
Son of Beast has a lot more potential, like some people have said. I give a lot of credit to PKI for putting so much time into the coaster to make it more comfortable for its visitors. Just a few rough spots but like I have said before its a hyper-woodie going over 70mph, what do you expect it to be smooth as glass, Intamin's Colossus may be real smooth but they did some very good experimenting for their new design. Overall, I think both the Beasts are really good coasters, you just gotta pick the right time and find the sweet seat of the trains to experience how fun the coasters really are. You can't determine how good a coaster is by one ride.

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Top 5
1.) Beast 2.) Phantom's Revenge 2.) SROS (SFNE) 4.) SROS (SFDL) 5.) MF

I'm sure the beast is similar to other coasters where the trims can be turned off by the mechanics, althought probably not by the operator.  Usually trims are installed on wood coasters to reduce forces on the structure by keeping the train's speed low.  I feel this is a pitiful remedy for sloppy engineering... just build them heavier-duty!

MisterX, sloppy engineering? They had to build this coaster on the sides of hills and into ravines. It took 3 - 4 designs, if I am not mistaken, to get the perfect layout so it looks the way it is now. And its going into its 23rd season of operation, I dont know how many times they have replaced wood pieces but some look pretty worn down and they are doin one hell of a job staying sturdy.
I could care less if trims are used. In the brake shed my dad and I make a game of it we say DON'T CATCH, DON'T CATCH, meaning slowing it down, sometimes we get lucky and it barely slows it down, but sometimes it slows it quite a bit.

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Top 5
1.) Beast 2.) Phantom's Revenge 2.) SROS (SFNE) 4.) SROS (SFDL) 5.) MF

Yes, sloppiness... it's evident in a lot of other wood coasters (Mean Streak comes to mind) where slow-down brakes were added because the trains were literally stearing the structure apart because of their speed.  I dare venture to say it's the same probelm with Beast.  I know that replacing wood is just a fact of life... but if jeez, just build the hell out of them and get it over with.

I love airtime, but I would rate a night ride on The Beast equal to Magnum.
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"It's always great for us to put the newest and the best rides into the roller coaster capitol of the world" Sandor Kernacs 11/20/01

Until now, I had decided to avoid the topic at hand.  Mostly because of time, but since it is a lazy Sunday afternoon, I want to take you on a journey through my thought process...

On February 7th, 1979, the Cincinnati Post was the first to carry the news that King's Island had chosen the name "The Beast" for the mammoth coaster project being readied for the 1979 season.  When the coaster opened, it was the first to break four world records:  longest track length, longest ride duration, two longest vertical drops and the fastest speed of any coaster.  At that time, it was also the most ambitious project any park had ever undertaken.  At a cost of $3 Million, and covering 35 acres, the ride is of epic proportions.  Because of the enormity of the project, the ride went through way too many revisions to recollect as well as several different in-house designers.  Charles Dinn, who often gets credited with the Beast's design, played a much smaller part of the ride's devolpment than many think.

The day after the ride opened, Sat April 14, 1979 it garnered a 4 hour wait.  That line itself was enough to set another record in the amusement industry.  The lines still, 23 years later, reach extensive waits.

I first encountered the Beast via television.  A popular 1970's show, "Real People" dedicated one entire segment to the Beast.  One of the show's stars warned people to wear two pairs of pants because "It will scare one of them off ya!"  The opening of the Beast was the first time that a rollercoaster garnered national attention via news, press and radio on such a grand scale.  Such incomprehensible publicity for a ride that was originally intended to be a "new" version of the Coney Island Wildcat or Shooting Star.  Those ideas and plans were shelved and later used at other parks.

In 2000, Son of Beast opened and set 5 world records: tallest wooden coaster, longest wooden coaster drop, fastest wooden coaster, only looping wooden coaster, and (combined with Beast, Racer and Beastie) most wooden coaster track at one park.  It was designed by the premier coaster designer of our times, and like it's predicessor went through countless revisions and concepts.  When the idea was first proposed, Paramount Parks Design and Engineering wanted to answer one simple question: "Can a wooden coaster be designed to go upside down?"  They got their answer: Yes.

Now, you may be asking what all this has to do with the topic at hand.  I'll explain. 

Beast is the most talked about, and most popular rollercoaster of modern times.  It was an instant legend which cannot be claimed by other modern coasters.  It was the first coaster in which a park decided to throw the "rule book" out the window and do things on a scale that no one had ever attempted.  The exact same thing can be said of Son of Beast, the park went no-holds barred, into the project completely shaking up the industry.

To judge these coasters by ride experience alone, IMO is a real shame.  When I ride these coasters I think of the sheer magnitude of them and the countless people that they have attracted to the park.  The enormity of the rides themselves cause me to marvel at the effort that must have gone into them.  Knowing many of the maintenance crew members completely humbles me.  They have spent the past 23 years working on the coasters morning, noon and night, just to give us simpletons a better ride.

The first time I rode Beast, I was terrified.  I never dreamed that I would survive the final helix with head intact.  When I got off, my sister could tell I was shaken and quietly asked if I wanted to leave.  What I could not explain to her was my shock developed out of experiencing a coaster that I will remember to my dying day.  I have yet to find another that instantaniously amazed me so.  I loved it.

The first time I rode Son Of Beast, I was also terrified.  I finally experienced a coaster that I had been anticipating for years.  I can only refer to it as a feeling of when a child is born.  As an outsider, I watched month after month as the project grew and developed.  When I rode it for the media event, the experience was quite cathartic.  It was a feeling of joy that I will also remember until my dying day.

The Beast offers the best helix I have ever experienced.  Son of Beast offers the best drop/loop combo I have experienced. The sheer speed of each is something to talk about again and again.  And like it or not, the rides themselves are discussed constantly by everyone that encounters them.

Without the Beast we would not have a morning walkback at PKI.  Without Son of Beast we would not have a choice for the walkback.  Without either we would have less groundbreaking coasters to discuss. 

I have mentioned in other posts way too many times how special a time it was for me to work on the Beast's 20th Anniversary Crew.  Some of my most incredible friendships were formed from that time I spent there.  I am extremely proud that I had the ability to operate a ride that has brought such joy to millions.  Working Beast gave me the opportunity to see countless adults introduce their children to their first "big" coaster.  I saw and heard from many that traveled hundreds of miles, or even from out of country to experience the ride.  I saw old people, young people, handicapped people, foreign people, and every-day people ride it and love it.  Quite frankly I also saw countless enthusiasts ride the coaster and leave with smiles, only to see them later post bashing posts about what a horrible time they had on it. I never heard a bad word from the non-enthusiast riders.  Ironic huh?

I admit to being way too sentimental about the ride.  I am like an overprotective parent when it comes to PKI and their Beasts.  I wish others could enjoy and share that sentiment too.  I see and hear others opinions and points, but I do not know, comprehend or understand them.
I think what baffles me the most is the complete disregard and turncoat nature many enthusiasts show when the subject of the Beast(s) arises.  So I resort to a big scratch of my head when I see bashers arrive for the popular morning walkbacks on either Beast or Sonny.  Usually I just think to myself "Why are they here? I thought they didn't like these coasters."

I believe many more enthusiasts like the rides than not, and love the ambiance and feelings they generate.  I also think they love to bash them,  which as a so-called enthusiast am embarassed by. 

A recent conversation with a park executive widened my thoughts quite a bit when they explained how a Wooden Coaster Maintenance Crew member had happened upon bashing posts just days after he had spent countless hours trying to better one the rides we are discussing.  My hat is off to him and his counterparts that do everything they can with absolutely no thanks.

The coasters are, in my opinion, worth a trip to the park.  They are worth the wait in line, and they are worth the attention they generate.  So when PKI re-opens in 2002 I will be present for the first seasonal walkback once again.  So will many of those who jut bashed these rides in this very thread above.  Shall we begin the roll call now?

Keep 'em coming PKI, and thanks for the smiles.

Shaggy

*** This post was edited by Shaggy on 12/9/2001. ***

Well said Shaggy. Thanks for taking time out to write to us. I'm absolutely speechless, but the huge smile on my face really is saying a lot to me. I'll definitely be there. The Beasts' are definitely the greatest wooden coasters of all time. As a matter of fact, the entire collection at PKI has made must be the most thoroughly rounded selection you can find anywhere. I don't think I really need to list the reasons why.
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Danny, who knows that those smiles mean more than words can say. Thanks to any crew member at any park that's puts forth that extra effort! The appreciation is definitely in here.

IMO, the Beast is kind of an acquired taste of riding.  I'll say, after riding straight out and straght back with nothing but airtime in the middle of a field(Shivering Timbers), it feels a lot different to ride in the woods, through tunnels and long curves with practically no airtime(the Beast).  But if you are into that sort of thing, the Beast will deliver big time.  The Beast will always have that last helix, which is damn impressive.

Son of Beast is just odd.  Odd trains, odd layout, odd pacing.  You would think that for a ride of this magnititude, a lot more could have been done.  Son of Beast is no good for airtime, but if you want power and intensity, SOB will give you more than enough.  I liked SOB more than the Beast, mainly because of those two massive helices.  You may not like the helices, but the first two just rocked my world.  Plus, SOB will always have its magnificent structure and it is fun to ride the biggest wooden coaster in the world.

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"This feels like walking into pins and needles. Nice to Know You.
Goodbye."-Incubus

Shaggy, you probably have written one of the most influential posts I have ever read on these forums.  Ever word you say is down right true.  The two beasts together form an unbreakable duo that has attracted millions and has broken records when they were built.  And MisterX, wood isn't as strong as steel and it will break down eventually from exposure to sun, rain and snow.  It will begin to deteriorate, it doesn't matter if you put twice as much wood on the coaster it will eventually do the same thing and have to be replaced and possibly slowed down so it don't wear it down anymore.  To keep the coaster up in good condition, I could care less if they added trims.  Enjoy the ride and get back in line.
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Top 5
1.) Beast 2.) Phantom's Revenge 2.) SROS (SFNE) 4.) SROS (SFDL) 5.) MF

*** This post was edited by beastnum1 on 12/9/2001. ***

I for one would have to say that the Beast at night has provided some of my best coaster experiences..... that said, it has never done much for me in the daytime..... SOB..... can't say it was a bad coaster, but i honestly have never given it much of a second though until i started reading this thread.  And as far as quality wood coasters go, if u gave me a choice between riding the beast and SOB or the raven and legend, i would pick the latter in about half a second

I would too d7droog for a couple reasons. First, although I love The Beasts', they do take a lot out of you from riding and are therefore, not as reridable as I believe the HW woodies are. Plus, The Legend is only my favorite woodie of all time, and harder to get to for me as often as SOB and Beast, so that would be my choice. If PKI does a HW and puts massively less painful trains on SOB, and loosens up the brakes on Beast a bit, I might have to rethink that decision.

The Beast is awesome.  The problem is most coaster enthusiasts do not appreciate good wood coasters, but you have the right to your own opinion...............It may be the inacurrate opinion, but you have the right to post it. 

I gotta disagree with you on that one, Boat69.  In all reality, the internet coaster community can be very different from the coaster community at large.  On message boards such as this, you are going to get a younger crowd, many of whom aren't going to be happy with anything but a silky smooth B&M.  When you get out into the real world, you find that very few people will say flat out "I like steel coasters better than wooden coasters."  The other thing is that the internet kinda levels the playing field.  Just about everyone here is more or less an equal so a 13 year old that has only been to the ohio parks can say "I HATE WOODEN COASTREZZ!!!  has just as loud a voice as somebody like, say, peabody or shaggy. 
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Kicking screamin' Gucci little siggy.

Shaggy,

 You have outdone yourself with that post. I FULLY agree with everything you said including the wondering of why those that don't care for rides on The Beast show up for the ACE walk-back. To this day, that still amazes me.

 Like yourself, I look at The Beast and Son of Beast in a much different way than most folks. I have gotten to see those rides in different ways then a lot of people. I try to focus on what those rides have to offer, instead of what they don't. Watching Son of Beast grow from day 1 is something I won't soon forget.

 -Sean

I'm at home, so I can't quote Shaggy, as much as I'd like to, and have the result make any sense. So please bear wit me on a couple of points...
Regarding Charlie Dinn's contributions to the Beast: I was most gratified to hear, during a construction tour of Sonny, our tour guide...I don't remember if it was Jeff or David...finally give credit to Al Collins for The Beast. Curt Summers, Charlie Dinn, and Al Collins all worked on The Beast, and most of the time they are credited simply as "Kings Island Design and Construction". I don't know who did what, but I've never understood how Dinn was the only one to get his name on the darned thing.
Regarding the ride quality on The Beast: The Beast is apparently a very tempramental ride. Unfortunately, I always seem to get my ride when it's running slow. I remember one time last season I was on the last train of the night and I thought we weren't going to make the second lift. Had the people in the lead car been sitting in the back, we probably wouldn't have made it...it was that slow. Have I gotten good rides on The Beast? Absolutely. Those rides just seem to be few and far between. And it hurts to get a dull ride on that, because I know it's a good coaster. The Beast isn't supposed to be a dull ride. It's just that under most common circumstances (as, for instance, when I am riding, apparently...) it just is. I have been on some really bad wooden coasters, and fortunately, The Beast isn't one of those. But I've also been on some really good coasters, and unfortunately, The Beast isn't one of those either. It should be, but it's not. And that's my biggest beef with the ride:
it simply isn't as good as it was designed and built to be. The potential is there.
Regarding Son of Beast: Shaggy, you may not like it when people evaluate the ride on the ride it delivers, but when you get right down to it, that's what really counts. So, Sonny is a revolutionary coaster...but if it doesn't deliver a good, safe ride do you think anybody will even consider doing it again? Again, that's a ride that ought to be a lot of fun. Are there things I'd have done differently with the layout? Certainly. Does that mean it has to be a dull ride? No. But that ride has a different problem. When I heard that Premier was going to build the trains, my immediate thought was that finally perhaps somebody would build a proper wood coaster train. I thought Son of Beast was going to be the coaster to prove so many enthusiasts wrong...you know, these people who say you should never build a wood coaster over 125 feet (or whatever) as if there is some arbitrary height and speed limit for wood coasters. I fully expected Son of Beast to prove once and for all that it was possible to built a
200+ foot wood coaster and have it work. Then I finally saw one of the cars, and I noticed that there was absolutely nothing new or different about the design, and that we were going to be stuck with a train that can't go around curves on a layout that is nothing but curves. Mean Streak all over again, only higher, faster, and more twisted. Instead of proving that a 200+-foot wood coaster can be done successfully, Sonny just proves once again that when wood coasters get to be that big, they simply don't work. I don't happen to agree with that assessment, and I think Sonny could be fixed by swapping out the train. But that's what happened. It isn't pleasant, and it's probably not fair. But when a ride gives a mediocre to poor ride and leaves riders with bruises and broken bones, then clearly there is something terribly wrong with the ride.
As for me, I hope I've gone a little beyond simply 'bashing' the coasters that happen not to be my favorites. And on opening weekend next season, I'll probably be down there riding, or at least attempting to ride, them both. But I don't expect I'll spend the whole day riding either one.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

The more wood you put into it, the better it (or any structure) will withstand time.  Build the hell out of it...  yeah, like I said, everyone wood ride has to have a lot of woodwork done on it, but if you make it much stronger than it needs to be, you won't have ot use those dang trims that have become oh-so-popular in recent years.

Rideman said:

And on opening weekend next season, I'll probably be down there riding, or at least attempting to ride, them both. But I don't expect I'll spend the whole day riding either one.

This is exactly my point.  If Son of Beast is not a coaster you enjoy...  if you hate the trains so much, or find the layout so terribly boring.... or if Beast is terribly inconsistant and rarely delivers you a good ride, or runs too slow etc etc etc then why do you return again and again to the park or for the walkback? 

I personally think Mean Streak, SFGAM Shockwave and Hercules are horrible coasters.  If the parks offered morning walkbacks or ample enthusiast rides on them, I would pass.  Each time I know go to Dorney, SFGAM or CP, I avoid those rides and sit them out if members of my party wish to ride.  Why?  I don't like them for similar reasons you list above.

A perfect example of this was Boss at this year's ACE Spring Con.  I am no fan of the Boss whatsoever.  I filled ERT there with rides on the Eagle, a much better coaster IMO.  When and if I return to SFSTL, I have no plans to re-ride Boss.  It holds no interest to me.

Everyone is completely entitled to their opinion.  If you don't like the Beast(s), then that's fine by me.  But what on earth keeps drawing you back to them again and again?  Doesn't that contradict what you say your feelings tell you?    Doesn't a desire to re-ride solidify their drawing power and worth?  Remember, even riding again in "hopes" of a good or enjoyable ride counts.

Shaggy - Scratching his head once more ;-)