What I mean by mechanical "problems" are errors we see come up over and over again. Such as (these are straight from the panel readout) "oil pressure - catcher lift 1" or "no life signal communication - catcher lift 2" and "cable tension - tower 2" This is is very complex and the controller reports even the slightest problem and stops the ride. I'm assuming the other parks have the same problem we do--we aren't allowed to change the computer program as much as we'd like to (we have the same problem with some Consign rides too).
What I am getting at is that if both the towers release from the same height, doing something to one of them doesn't seem logical. Mechanical problems are the root of the downtime on this ride, but the controller could use some work too. Fortunately, there are a handful of errors that occur the most often, and the mechanics can ge the ride going within 5-10 minutes, which is pretty good for any ride breakdown. Altering the controller's program, though, is really not an option.
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Isn't the GIB at WBMW in spain almost never down. I was told that the park wanted al of their rides to be reliable so they gave Vekoma extra time to fix all the problems with the coaster. Maybe they should fix these rides durign the off-seasons of the parks or close it down for a period of time to fix it like they did for X. Please tell me if my information is false.
Well, all parks want reliable coasters. I think because the fourth GIB was built so much later than the first three, there was time to design and build improvements to the previous three.
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GP, you seem to keep missing what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting the ride operators or even the park itself goes in and screws around with the program. They'd need to contract somebody who knows what they're doing to design a program that's actually going to work.
Your argument about the towers being the same height seems logical, but it's really not. The boomerang is taller than the loop, which is where it has problems going through slowly. Going through the course forwards is no problem because it occurs right after the tower. Going backwards, however, the highest part of the course (cobra roll) occurs further down the course (after the loop), meaning it's going slower through the cobra roll and hence the problems. This is exactly why adding height to tower two would be beneficial (though, let me stress again, not necessarily cost-effective).
The mechanical errors you're speaking of *could* actually be mechanical issues, but more likely they're computer related (ie sensors reading something incorrectly). My evidence is that, if it only takes 5-10 minutes to get the ride running again, it's probably *not* something mechanical.
The only mechanical problems I've seen occur frequently are the premature release from the towers (not a problem if the program is working correctly and stops the train at the bottom) and the train not aligning correctly in the station. An adjustment in the software that controls the ride would probably fix both issues, but like I said - that would have to be contracted out, meaning more money being poured into the ride.
-Nate
Didn't the fourth GIB Valley not to long ago? I remember seeing a topic about it not that long ago.
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Final Deja Vu Count for the 2002 Season: 52
SFGAm CoasterWorld
Changing the controller can't be contracted out to anyone but Vekoma. SF Inc. has personnel throughout the system who can reprogram everything (that's their job), but Vekoma doesn't want us to do that and theoretically could sue the park for changing the controller.
The basic problem with this ride is that it's very mechanically complex... which is why it may never function as well as we would like it to. Even though there are sensors everywhere to detect problems, ultimately it's too many moving parts that cause this ride to get errors... hence the beauty in the impulse, comparing the two.
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CoasterDude316 said:
Didn't the fourth GIB Valley not to long ago? I remember seeing a topic about it not that long ago.
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Final Deja Vu Count for the 2002 Season: 52
SFGAm CoasterWorld
No. There was a power failure that caused the train to be stuck at the top of a spike, or something like that...
http://www.coasterbuzz.com/forums/thread.asp?ForumID=11&TopicID=26135
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*** This post was edited by du8die on 11/9/2002. ***
*IF* that's the case, then SF should contact Vekoma, tell them what they want done, and Vekoma should do it! Of course, that's not going to happen and, to be honest, I have a hard time believing the "Vekoma could sue" argument for several basic reasons.
Yes, the ride is extremely mechanically complex. It's not the mechanics that are experiencing the problems, however, it's all the sensors set to monitor them! This is exactly why the major problem is in the computer control system.
-Nate
The sensors are typically standard proximity limits that are tried and true. It is over-sensitive. But low oil pressure or cable tension is just that... not really a sensor problem DV is not of a simple design... and usually the more complex something is, the harder it is to keep running... (see: any complex machine).
Vekoma [theoretically] could sue, as the company stipulates what the park can and can't do to the ride. Obviously Vekoma, Inc. would need to reprogram whatever needed it, but the fact of the matter is that Vekoma doesn't want to do that, or they would have at our request.
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As I said above, errors like low oil pressure or cable tension problems are obviously mechanical, but if those errors are showing up on the screen and are fixed *within minutes*, then it's probably a simple sensor issue (the sensor reading oil pressure or cable tension). Mechanical issues just aren't normally fixed that quickly.
-Nate
This isn't a house we're talking about. It's a multimillion dollar piece of equipment. Vekoma is not alone in prohibiting certain changes throughout the ride. We want to change some controller characteristics on a couple of B&M rides we have, but B&M doesn't want us to do that.
When they are fixed within minutes, it's because the maintenance staff is so used to doing it. These were errors that would shut the ride down for hours at a time when we first got it. Some errors will do the same now, they're just unlikely. If there's lowe oil pressure in a catcher, then there's low oil pressure. The mechanics lower the sled and fix it. If it's cable tension, the ride will be down a little longer because they have to "fool around with the damn cable spools" (park mechanic) and correct it. The sensors throughout the ride do their job quite well... if you're saying the problem is that their "parameters" (allowed variance) are too tight or small, I would probably agree with you. Then, the controlling program has to be changed, and Vekoma won't do it, and they won't let us do it, either.
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Seriously, "certain" changes may be prohibited, but you can't tell me that (a) there's no way around them and (b) changes to allow the ride to operate properly would be restricted. Certainly there have been many rides modified without the manufacturer's help, whether they be Arrow megaloopers or B&M hypercoasters.
Every time I've seen a GIB go down maintenance has had to do nothing other than screw around with the computer. Now, obviously I haven't camped out and watched the ride operate for hours but I think it *is* safe to say that most of the ride's problems are not, in fact, mechanical but simple computer errors. That's certainly nothing uncommon (I'd guess the majority of problems with all rides are computer glitches, errors, sensors, etc) but Deja Vu seems to have more than its fair share of problems. It's likely that's due to the complex nature of the ride's machinery, which is why I think a modifaction of that monitoring equipment and/or software would be a solution.
I think we're in agreement with the above (as you say, "parameters" being the problem) but you can't tell me there's no way to fix that. I'm sure there's something in the contract (if there is such a thing) that says if Vekoma won't do it they can contract it out. Afterall, it isn't Vekoma that owns the ride.
-Nate
When you see a maintenance person go into the computer room, they have to find the error off the main computer and clear it there. Depending on what it is it will be as simple as that or be down for a few hours or days to amek adjustments.
Ride manufacturers do stipulate in contracts what parks can and can't do. They don't like parks or anyone else to change their programs, because they feel the ride's safety would be jeopardized, even if it probably won't be.
For instance, on BTR and Scorcher, if the operator slips and any of the dispatch buttons are released while dispatching a train or advancing a train into the station, a ride error occurs (ride stop occurs). The ride cannot be restarted until an electrician clears the error and manually starts everything. Most other coasters will stop moevement of a train once you let off the advance button, but when you press down again, it will resume. The two B&Ms will not restart.
It's a dumb setup because it's not necessary--I have no idea why Consign integrated that command in, causing a ride breakdown out of a minor situation. At any rate, we (the park) want this reprogrammed, and in truth we could simply do it ourselves--many of the park mechanics can write controller commands--but B&M/Consign have stonewalled all our efforts. Believe me, if we could have rewritten lines of code on these rides, we would have--but they don't want us to.
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I understand that, when a break down occurs, maintenance needs to access the ride's computer to see what's up. That's a given. What I said, however, was (from my experience) that's *all* they need to do. They access the computer, monkey around there for a few minutes, and then it's back up and running. Obviously that's not a mechanical problem. I'm not saying there are no mechanical problems, just that the majority of the problems with the ride don't seem to be.
The system you speak of with B:TR and Scorcher may be true but, if I'm understanding what you said correctly, I know for a *fact* that's not the case on all B&M coasters. I've seen a ride op let go of the dispatch button early countless times and no error occurs; pressing the button back down continues to advance the train.
Ride manufacturers may attempt to have a say in what can and can't be done to their rides, but it seems to me there are ways around it. Certainly many parks have figured out how. Maybe you're being fed some misinformation.
-Nate
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Unfortunately, adding onto the towers would not be safe. While it sounds like the ultimate solution, going backwards through that loop in the back seat pull so many g's it's mind blowing (literally) any more speed and Markey would have a new victim. As it was stated though, it's the lift chassis that let go too soon periodically. If I'm not mistaken it's a computer complication that tells it to let go to early every blank number of runs.
What bothers me is I think Vekoma saw this coming, what other reason would there be to install the brakes in the loop and the beginning of the cobra roll? Unless these were installed over last winter, anyway, the brakes I feel have been very effective.
For those of you that haven't ridden it, they close when the train hits the lift in case the lift would malfunction, they could stop the train and "in theory" release the brakes to attempt the lift again. As soon as the train had gotten past a certain height, the brakes open and the train drops through.
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GP: I feel you guys could make changes to the programs but if you guys make an irreparable problem, B&M ain't gonna do **** because you broke the contract. That's a risk you have to be willing to take.
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