Petition seeks to prevent Trump from speaking in The Hall of Presidents at Disney's Magic Kingdom

Sorry. On my phone and accidentally hit delete when aiming for the vote up link.

I didn't edit your post other than reviving it after accidentally killing it.

Lord Gonchar said:

It's all cyclical. Everyone just switches sides and blames each other for what they just did.

No. If you really think that there is some political and moral equivalency to what's going on now and anything else in our lifetime, you need to open a history book. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that wouldn't gladly accept Bush, McCain or Romney over this guy.

RideMan said:

Contrary to President Lincoln's famous words, the Federal government is not a government of the People, but rather of the States, which in turn represent their own People.

And unfortunately, with the passage of the 17th Amendment, the federal government is a good bit less a government of the states since the People elect both representatives and senators. It makes more sense that the state legislators elect senators, since the Senate was originally intended to represent the states, while the House represents the People.

I see the 17th Amendment as one of the first steps to moving from a democratic republic to a full democracy (the next step would be to eliminate the electoral college). And no, I don't advocate either. I'd prefer to see a repeal of the 17th amendment.

People already thing we live in a full democracy now, so...

I'm always surprised at how many people have no idea America is a republic.

Jeff said:

No. If you really think that there is some political and moral equivalency to what's going on now and anything else in our lifetime, you need to open a history book.

Wow.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that wouldn't gladly accept Bush, McCain or Romney over this guy.

I think there's absolutely an equivalency in that all of the same people would be bitching about any of those guys too. Trump is Hitler. So was Obama. So Was Bush.

You don't need to open a history book to see that, you just have to open your eyes...or look at the photo Josh posted - which puts my comment in context.

But, sure. Trump is Hilter...really for real this time, you guys. I swear.

This has been argued to death with you, and your position is "because I say so" in the face of countless arguments made in historical context for you. We haven't seen anything like this since Nixon, though we largely didn't understand his nonsense until after he left office. Before that, McCarthyism was used to systematically remove anyone in government and some private industries who didn't fall in line with the nationalist tendencies of those in power. Those were dangerous times in American history, and whether you want to see it or not doesn't negate the actual occurrence of events. The parallels are not imaginary, nor are they anything like anything we've seen in our lifetime among presidents.

And by the way, the existence of people who overreacted (re: Josh's photo) doesn't solve the argument. Come on man, you're smarter than that.

Yeah, and I still maintain we're talking about two different things. I don't care how scary Trump is or other presidents weren't or whatever. That's not what I'm saying. I'm merely commenting on the reaction.

And in that sense, Josh's photo validates what I've been saying entirely.

(and we had this same discussion on Facebook where you got on me for not taking as stand or worrying about policy or something)

People do the same **** over and over in painfully predicatble (and often hypocritical) ways - that's all I'm saying. All my left leaning friends sound just like my right leaning frends did for the last 8 years and vice versa.

The fact that you see other times as overreactions and this one as reasonable doesn't change the reactions...only their perceived validity. You seem to take offense to my pointing out the similar reactions because the people doing it now are "right" and those doing the same to Obama or Bush or whoever weren't.

But, even if you're right, it doesn't make the observation false.

I agree with that. There have been several times people have pointed out how so many thought Obama was the Antichrist (he wasn't, and neither is Trump), and now you have the other side saying the same as 8 years ago.

I agree that it's a back and forth of feeling that way.

So I agree with that much.

The left may sound about Trump like the right did about Obama, but THIS is very different.

No other President in my lifetime has demonstrated such publicly shameful, immoral, hateful behavior as Trump. No other President has publicly demonstrated such a clear disregard for the principals of democracy (examples, calling legitimate news "fake news," stating the voting system was "rigged" (only to incite riots if he lost). etc.)

THIS is not like Romney or McCain won the election. The left would not agree with their policies, but these people would have acted like leaders and Presidential. Even Bush, who was morally corrupt and has the blood of everyone killed in Iraq on his hands, at least knew how to act like a human being in public.

Donald Trump is an embarrassment to decency and the human race. Any American that is OK with his behavior or accepts it is also an embarrassment to the human race.

One other thought. Nooby that old, that fat and that hateful will physically be able to handle the demands of this job without big health problems. I venture to say, when his health declines, his equally horrible advisors will hide that face and start pulling the strings like they did when Reagan's memory declined in his Presidency.

Lord Gonchar said:

You seem to take offense to my pointing out the similar reactions because the people doing it now are "right" and those doing the same to Obama or Bush or whoever weren't.

Yes, but your implication sure seems to be that people today are overreacting just as much as anyone has in recent history.

Yeah I think that this is fundamentally a different situation. We have an actual political crisis that's likely to ultimately severely negatively affect both the right and the left, but because people have cried wolf so many times, there are many who are totally apathetic to it.

I'll invoke Goodwin's law, but the first people the Nazis conquered were the German people who partially welcomed it.

It's like when the boton bombings happened and people just blatantly let police in their homes 'for safety' without warrants. I see very much the same apathy about the current administration.

djDaemon said:

Yes, but your implication sure seems to be that people today are overreacting just as much as anyone has in recent history.

And maybe it is. It's two separate things to me, but I'm sure they overlap even when I don't mean them to.

And yes, I've said it many times - I'm not nearly as afraid of Trump as I supposed to be. I believe the checks and balances and complex system in place will keep him in check. It already is to a large degree. I do think it's an overreaction. But even ignoring my personal slant, it's fun (and we're Facebook pals - you see me say all of this there) to see the sides switch and the left says what the right said and the right to defend like the left did.

The thing is, even if you feel like it's different, so did the people that hated Obama...and Bush...and Clinton...and so on. The threat of whatever felt very real to them too and they would give examples of why it was true just like someone is going to be wont to do in response to this very comment I'm typing right now. From my perspective, it's very similar.

And if the world as we know it ends, feel free to tell me I was finally wrong. However, when it doesn't. I fully expect the argument to still be that it was somehow different...because that's what both sides feel when they oppose the leadership.

"I'm right. They were wrong."

That's exactly what I'm pointing out.

Last night, the Prime Minister of Japan was sitting in the dining room at Mar-A-Lago discussing his nation's business in the immediate aftermath of a ballistic missile launch from North Korea. I'm fairly certain he'd have preferred to discuss this latest saber-rattling and potential escalation from a regional nuclear foe somewhere more privately. Someplace "secure"...?

Lord Gonchar said:

Yeah, and I still maintain we're talking about two different things. I don't care how scary Trump is or other presidents weren't or whatever. That's not what I'm saying. I'm merely commenting on the reaction.

Why bother if not to simply be argumentative?

The fact that you see other times as overreactions and this one as reasonable doesn't change the reactions...only their perceived validity. You seem to take offense to my pointing out the similar reactions because the people doing it now are "right" and those doing the same to Obama or Bush or whoever weren't.

No, I take offense to you suggesting that there is some kind of moral equivalence (I know I've said that a hundred times by now). If you don't have any skin in the game, great, but if your point is simply the observation that this is just the opposite reaction of the opposite faction, then I believe you're just argumentative or truly don't care about why this is different. This is not a left or right thing. It's not a sports rivalry. This is some repugnant stuff going on, for all of the reasons I've mentioned or for the reasons your "eyes glaze over" on Facebook.

Jeff said:

This is not a left or right thing. It's not a sports rivalry.

That's so awesome because in my first reply to you, I actually typed something ****ty along the lines of, "It's exactly that 'people treat politics like a sports rivalry' analogy you always use that I hate," but ended up erasing it.

That line always killed me. But you know what? In hindsight you were probably more right than I care to admit. Everyone is treats this stuff exactly like a sports rivalry.

Why bother if not to simply be argumentative?

You realize who you just typed that at, right? ;)

If it's being argumentive to point at everyone and say, "You're all f'n goofy. Look in the mirror, you're doing exactly what they did and condemning them for doing exactly what you did," then call me Mr. Argumentive. I like to think of it as my own special brand of social commentary encouraging self-awareness.

And while I knew it happened to some degree, I think the rise of social media has made it annoyingly obvious. Facebook and Twitter existed pre-Obama, but barely. Most people jumped on after Obama was elected. That's pretty much the bulk of social media history being one way - the right being entirely unreasonable in their opposition to leadership they disagreed with and the left (often rightfully) calling them out. All I'm saying is, sitting back and watching for the most part with no real skin in the game, so to speak, all I'm seeing is the more of the same. The teams have just switched sides.

This is some repugnant stuff going on, for all of the reasons I've mentioned or for the reasons your "eyes glaze over" on Facebook.

And they're glazing over again at the latest scolding of how I don't get it and this is different.

It is different. You're on the other side of the ball now. You feel exactly like those people did when they were on your side of the ball. But of course, they were unreasonable and you're dead serious...because this is for real this time...not the silliness they perpetuated.

And they think the same thing.

Dude, you're saying the exactly same crap my friends on the right said for the past 8 years and they believed in it as fully and fundamentally as the truth as you do now.

But they were wrong and you're right. Right?

There's a reason I avoided this conversation and only jumped in the make a funny, and point at everyone and laugh...again, after Josh (sorry, man, but it's true) pointed a little of it out himself. I was just saying, "Yeah. This."

I'm not taking sides. I don't give two flying ****s about Trump. He's a trainwreck. Meh.

I'm not gonna lie though, I do love how pissed off people get over it.

I haven't said one pro-Trump thing or defended him in any way, but look at the posts taking place around mine. It's like I'm not only the devil, but I must also be the retarded version as well for not actively being angry. I mustn't understand. I have to be told again and again how bigly he sucks.

That's a sports rivalry reaction.

Yes....

I get Mr Lord Gonchar's point, and don't disagree. Both Republcans and Democrats, when on the losing side, become harbingers of doom. I do it myself. Facebook is one of the reasons, and I'd suggest the 24 hour news cycle we live is another: the cable news channels want to be fed, constantly, preferably in short segments with easily discernable sides.

But...

Donald Trump is not a typical President. He signs executive orders he hasn't read, for crying out loud: he learned he'd put Steve Bannon on the NSC from a newspaper. He conducts government business, that should be attended to in secure environments, at restaurant tables. (Hell, he's at the head of an administration that can't proof read its official Inauguration poster.)

Say what you may about Ronald Reagan or George Bush or Bill Clinton or the second George Bush or Barack Obama, but whichever side you're on politically -- they understood how government works. Donald Trump, demonstrably, does not.

It's probably safe to say that whatever side of a political issue Mike Pence is on, I'm on the opposite side. But he knows how government works. I'd rather he were President.

Happy Valentines Day, everyone!

Gonch, you could just leave it at "I don't see a difference," then I would just ignore you. You don't get the difference between political policy differences and more destructive things like fascism and real threats to the Constitution and civil rights. It's not like no one has tried to explain them, but that's cool. What disappoints me is that you don't take a stand for anything. Your apathy drives me nuts.

Jeff said:

Gonch, you could just leave it at "I don't see a difference," then I would just ignore you.

I don't see a difference.

You don't get the difference between political policy differences and more destructive things like fascism and real threats to the Constitution and civil rights.

If you believe that's the case, then I'm hardly alone in my ignorance. More realistically, you don't see how you're just fighting/standing for what you believe in the same as everyone else. Your hatred of Trump's potential for facist moves is not different than my hatred of Bernie's potential for socialist moves, and if you think it is, then you really need to reconsider who doesn't understand what.

And yes, I made the same silly anti-Bernie noise for a year as the anti-Obama people made for 8 years and the Anti-Trump people are now. Even I got sick of hearing myself talk about it.

Your apathy drives me nuts.

I voted. I have the sticker to prove it.

I don't even agree with Sanders, but are you honestly comparing "free" health care and college to oppressing people based on race and ethnicity?