No More Stand-By Line for Toy Story Mania

Over the years, I've switched to getting my dining reservations the night before, or sometimes even the day of. You'd be surprised at how much is available most times of the year. For a typical week-long vacation, I'll book maybe one or two "special" meals that we plan around, but the rest is catch-as-catch-can. That works during spring break season; it will be interesting to see if it can work for the holidays this year.

The appeal of the Dining Plan has always escaped me. As I understand it, it only saves you money if you eat every meal/snack included. I'd rather be saying to myself, "Oh, look, Dole Whip! Let's get one." than "Damn! I have to use this snack credit and I don't have time to get over to Magic Kingdom, what's here to eat?"

I'd guess the ones who are soured on Disney dining are the ones who can't get in. The rest of the customers are quite happy. And judging from the full restaurants I'd say that's quite a few. :-)

But I get it. I went into a deep depression when I realized I was too late for California Grill, and that was about a month out. And it was February, so there ya go.
We did wind up eating there, btw. It wasn't the night we wanted, but somehow, magically, we were able to squeeze in. (I think we pestered them every day that week until they finally said ok) And we got a window seat in time for the show.

I would expect that at least some of the people who make dining reservations months in advance do so because they have to (or at least believe that they have to). And if they had the choice (or believe they had the choice) they would prefer to play it more by ear and dine where/when suits their mood on the given day.

Jeff said:

If I'm Johnny Tourist and I want to ride, my only option is to dick around with my phone or stand at a kiosk all day in the hopes I can get a slot, which ceases to be a vacation.

Presumably, Johnny tourist would have made a reservation to ride way before he stepped foot in the park.

At the very least why would it have to differ from how the kiosks have always worked? You walk by and see if there are Fastpasses avilable.

I mean, whole side markets exist to help people make sure the do everything they want to a Disney. Stamp the official Disney guarantee on it and it's gold.

You're making straw man arguments. You were arguing for 100% reservations, which they haven't been doing for 15 days, let alone 15 years.

No, I'm really not. The 100% prereserved thing doesn't exist in a vacuum. You have to hit all the points between to go from A-to-Z. The other steps are worthy of discussion in the big picture.

Go to Magic Kingdom any day it rains and watch the Fastpass lines become the standby queues of the old days.

Yeah, you've mentioned that. :)

I still feel like it's an argument in my favor. The system persists in the face of real world setbacks. It's not hard to get past. They've continued doing it for 15 years now.

Those lines become the old stanby queue and the entire infrastructure doesn't collapse around the park's wait times and Fastpass distribution. It works!

This has nothing to do with what they did for 15 years... this is the reality today that makes your 100% planning day, which people don't want anyway, impossible.

1. I forgot I was at CoasterBuzz - home of the entirely too literal interpretation. Obviously, 100% prereserved days allow for spontaniety and windows of opportunity.

2. I still think you (and many others) are far off in understanding what the average once-in-a-blue-moon Disney world visitor wants. Like I said, avenues exist to seek 3rd party help in advance planning in order to do everything. I see no reason to assume Disney wouldn't want to control that as well.

Also, isn't FastPass+ exactly that - a pre-reservation? If people hate it so much, how come it's become the new standard? And how come the complaint isn't that you have to reserve in advance, but rather that you can only reserve 3 rides in advance?

So how many do people want? 4? 5? 6? 9? At what point have you reserved enough rides in advance that those rides sort of loosely dictate your day at the park? Essentially 100% preplanned. (at least in the sense I envision it)

Do you really think they're testing whether or not they can fill the seats?

No. And I never said that. They're testing whether it's feasible to eliminate the stand-by line and replace it with 100% reserved ride times. Literally. They're taking 4 days and doing this. 100%. Reserved. It's happening. (at least for testing and informational purposes at this point)

Does the method of distribution really confound the situation in any way. Does it matter if it's kiosk, a wristband or at home before you leave? It's still 100% reservations.

I suspect they're testing how pissed off people are that they can't ride Toy Story.

Opposite side of the same coin. If you're figuring out who can ride, you also have to consider who can't ride.

I dunno. It all still feels kind of obvious and common sense to me. Look at all of the little pieces. Look at where they started and where they've gone. Follow the path that's been carved so far and take a guess where it ends.

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of who pre-reserved when and where -- one might say how spontaneous the pre-planning is? (That is, who's locking in TSM months in advance v who's deciding to hit DHS and making remote reservations v who's at the park and is standing at a kiosk or on line for another attraction using their smartphone.)

Lord Gonchar said:

Presumably, Johnny tourist would have made a reservation to ride way before he stepped foot in the park.

That's a broken presumption because it implies unlimited capacity. We've got Fastpasses for Seven Dwarfs Mine Train coming up, and we had to get them literally the first day we were allowed to, 30 days out. And by the way, that's only because we have annual passes... the legions of unticketed people staying on I-Drive get no such opportunity.

At the very least why would it have to differ from how the kiosks have always worked? You walk by and see if there are Fastpasses avilable.

It's not even remotely the same. Passes trickled out daily until they were gone. Now there are a handful of attractions that run out a month in advance.

I still think you (and many others) are far off in understanding what the average once-in-a-blue-moon Disney world visitor wants.

Come on, really? You know what I did the entire last year of my professional life. I think I'm pretty qualified to know more about the habits of theme park guests than most people. If I could share real data and research, I think you'd be surprised at just how little people plan in advance. I was.

Also, isn't FastPass+ exactly that - a pre-reservation? If people hate it so much, how come it's become the new standard? And how come the complaint isn't that you have to reserve in advance, but rather that you can only reserve 3 rides in advance?

You're changing the argument again. No one is complaining about Fastpass. Your argument is that people would be OK with 100% planning everything, and I'm telling you they wouldn't be, and in practice wouldn't work that well.

I dunno. It all still feels kind of obvious and common sense to me. Look at all of the little pieces. Look at where they started and where they've gone. Follow the path that's been carved so far and take a guess where it ends.

I think you're fundamentally reading the entire thing wrong. The stated purpose of Fastpass to guests has always been to get people out of lines, while the message to analysts has been to increase per capita spending and manage crowds. The system as it exists today is not fundamentally different for the guest in terms of its opportunity to use it outside of the off-property guests being cut out of the most popular attractions.

The system in practice helps distribute crowds due to design choices in the user interface and allocation. For example, they'll limit Test Track to say 60% FP, 40% standby. When you use the app or a kiosk, you can't get a pass for Test Track, so they suggest Spaceship Earth or The Land. Sometimes they'll suggest an alternate even if the one you want is available. The secret is that the armies of people staffing the kiosks (which is one of the reasons the system has been so expensive) can tap around and get you what you want, but people using the web or app have no obvious cue that you can change.

This test is just the wrong idea for the wrong problem. There are a few attractions right now that simply don't have capacity to meet demand: Toy Story Mania, Anna and Elsa character meet, and maybe Soarin' during the busy seasons. I don't know why people would stand in line three hours to meet fake princesses, but not having that as an option would (and has) led to far too many tears.

The truth is, most attractions never have a standby line that would ever justify making every thing require a reservation. There are so few things that even have a 30-minute line most of the time. (And by the way, they lie about posted wait times to distribute crowds as well.) The number of empty seats on rides like People Mover, Spaceship Earth, and even Haunted Mansion in the off-season are no joke.

Lord Gonchar said:

Presumably, Johnny tourist would have made a reservation to ride way before he stepped foot in the park.

There is no Johnny Tourist (there is a Johnny Rotten)....the Tourists were the band that evolved into the Eurythmics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXdpA2ej0nw

Jeff said:

That's a broken presumption because it implies unlimited capacity. We've got Fastpasses for Seven Dwarfs Mine Train coming up, and we had to get them literally the first day we were allowed to, 30 days out. And by the way, that's only because we have annual passes... the legions of unticketed people staying on I-Drive get no such opportunity.

Still don't see the problem. You're telling me it won't work because there's not unlimited capacity and then in the same breath saying the way the current system works is that not everyone gets a pass because of limited capacity.

Which is exactly what I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to convey. That the current system (to some degree) and the current test on TSMM account for and/or deal with all of these "issues" and still work. The same things you're saying make it unreasonable are things that occur and are handled by current standards. (again, assuming the four day test goes well)

It's not even remotely the same. Passes trickled out daily until they were gone. Now there are a handful of attractions that run out a month in advance.

Now you changed the argument on me. In this little section of the discussion we were discussing how to distribute on the fly for the hypothetical 'margin of error' riders.

The answer is - no differently than the kiosks always have.

I think I'm pretty qualified to know more about the habits of theme park guests than most people.

I'm sure you do.

Doesn't change the fact that Disney currently expects people to completely preplan three attractions and the complaint (in a general consensus online sort of way) is that they can't get more than three rides pre-reserved.

Or that people pay for things like this and this...all the time. The market is there.

Plus, I think Disney is one of the best in 'suggesting' what the guest should do. If the only way to really 'do' Disney is to include a degree of preplanning, then people will. Their audience seems to be pretty adaptable.

Also, in the opening paragraph you just told me demand for passes was such that you had to get Seven Dwarves passes 30 days out and that average schlubs will never get their hands on them. That sounds like people are willing to plan in advance to ensure access to an attraction.

You're changing the argument again. No one is complaining about Fastpass. Your argument is that people would be OK with 100% planning everything, and I'm telling you they wouldn't be, and in practice wouldn't work that well.

No, I'm not (again) - I'm showing that people are currently preplanning three attraction visits per day with Fastpass+ and that from what I've read and understand they want more. At what point does that shade of grey get far enough over that you're essentially dictating much of your day based around pre-made attraction/dining/character/show reservations?

It's not a military-tight itinerary (nor should it be), but it's a marginally flexible agenda. More planned than not by a good amount.

Again, looking at the current system and use, my perceived wants of the customer based on what I've seen and heard and then filling in the gaps with my own special brand of observation and logic. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The stated purpose of Fastpass to guests has always been to get people out of lines, while the message to analysts has been to increase per capita spending and manage crowds...

And I don't see how any of that changes. With a 100% reservation system for a ride (like this TSMM test) the line disappears (the message to guests). There's nowhere to be but out spending (especially if other attractions don't have the line either) and what better way to manage a crowd than direct them around the park at your will by assigning the times they need to be in certain areas of the park? (the message for investors/analysts)

More preplaning does everything Fastpass is supposed to do. It just does it even better.

The truth is, most attractions never have a standby line that would ever justify making every thing require a reservation. There are so few things that even have a 30-minute line most of the time. (And by the way, they lie about posted wait times to distribute crowds as well.) The number of empty seats on rides like People Mover, Spaceship Earth, and even Haunted Mansion in the off-season are no joke.

Fair enough. However, a preplanning system doesn't make that situation negative in some way. I bet people still eat up those FastPasses on slow days. No harm, no foul.

And, at the best, you can use this sort of thing as crowd management to fill those empty seats and reduce 30-minute waits to 10-minute waits.

You're looking at it as "there's no reason to do it on slow days" and I'm thinking more along the lines of "there's no reason not to" - especially if it means it's there for the busy days.

Lord Gonchar said:
Doesn't change the fact that Disney currently expects people to completely preplan three attractions and the complaint (in a general consensus online sort of way) is that they can't get more than three rides pre-reserved.

They do not expect that. Rasulo himself said so in a blog post when they started to roll out the system last year. He said it was a voluntary system and that you'll still be able to experience the attractions in stand by if you choose.

Also, in the opening paragraph you just told me demand for passes was such that you had to get Seven Dwarves passes 30 days out and that average schlubs will never get their hands on them. That sounds like people are willing to plan in advance to ensure access to an attraction.

That's a bizarre leap. No, it sounds like the people willing to plan exceeds the FP allotment of the attraction. Fortunately, if you really need to ride it, you have the standby option. Besides, you can't possibly argue you know the motivation of tends of thousands of people on any given day. For all you know, they're like, "Crap, if I want a shot at riding this, I better get a FP or I'll be waiting." I won't say that's coercion, but it's hardly "willingness."

I'm showing that people are currently preplanning three attraction visits per day with Fastpass+ and that from what I've read and understand they want more.

That's a different argument from suggesting 100% is the way of the future.

And you know why they do 3 today? Because it tends to be around the threshold of what people are willing to plan. You can get more after that in the park, but I can tell you with certainty that whatever inventory is left goes unused to a large degree.

And I don't see how any of that changes.

You mean except for the part where you're SOL and can't ride because you didn't get a pass and there is no standby? That's more than an asterisk of a change.

You're looking at it as "there's no reason to do it on slow days" and I'm thinking more along the lines of "there's no reason not to" - especially if it means it's there for the busy days.

You mean except for the part where you have to staff it and maintain it? And by the way, no, you can't walk on to this empty Spaceship Earth because you need to go get a pass first. That would be totally asinine.

Jeff said:
They do not expect that.

Again, just going off what I feel I've seen and heard in terms of public sentiment. Seems like I read a lot of complaints that Fastpass+ was limited to three passes. Even here on CB.

He said it was a voluntary system and that you'll still be able to experience the attractions in stand by if you choose.

Things change.

I think we're still ignoring that there's an actual functioning real-world implementation of 100% reserved rides happening right now on arguably the single most popular ride at the WDW resort.

You ain't standing by on those four days. Things change.

For all you know, they're like, "Crap, if I want a shot at riding this, I better get a FP or I'll be waiting." I won't say that's coercion, but it's hardly "willingness."

Exactly what I meant with the comment that Disney is pretty good at 'suggesting' you do things a certain way when you visit.

If visiting Disney means doing things a certain way, history has shown people do it. The new and crazy quickly becomes the old and normal.

And you know why they do 3 today? Because it tends to be around the threshold of what people are willing to plan.

Cool. 3 today. 4 down the road. 5 after that.

You mean except for the part where you're SOL and can't ride because you didn't get a pass and there is no standby? That's more than an asterisk of a change.

Capacity doesn't change. The same amount of people get shafted. All that changes is how and who the rides are distributed to. The stand-by has been pre-alloted. If you were able to get in a stand-by line before, there's no reason to believe you can't get a reservation now.

You mean except for the part where you have to staff it and maintain it? And by the way, no, you can't walk on to this empty Spaceship Earth because you need to go get a pass first. That would be totally asinine.

Staff and maintain what? The same thing they've been staffing and maintaining all along. I'm thinking we have very different ideas of implementation in our heads.

And it does seem a little weird to need a pass for a walk on, but I still feel like you're taking the whole thing much too literally. Worst case scenario is you'd have to grab an "on the fly" pass at the entrance of the queue. (and that assumes an awful lot based on previous assumptions like "on the fly" passes to account for margin of error riders) Even still, that's no more inconvenient that a needing tickets to board a ride at a PPR park. (which, ironically, is how Disney originally worked)

I'm not sure if you're making it needlessly complicated just to challenge me or what.

So after the first days of the test, are they going to change it up so that you can enter the standby queue after 4:00pm?

This 100% reservation crap has been tried before, with the result that it royally pissed off a whole bunch of people who got frozen out of any opportunity to ride, and was such a huge success that the whole plan was first neutered, then scrapped completely.

If you haven't been around long enough to remember, start HERE.

(N.B. At that time, that discussion forum was not paged, and the URL format has changed, so the continuation link on the last page does not work. Grab the thread ID in the continuation link and apply it to the thread URL to read the rest.)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I think they may well be on their way to a reservation only theme park and maybe they are doing this not to see how it will work today but to gauge how it will work on something in the future.

I think Potterworld is a good example of where "reservation only" would work and probably please the majority of people. I'm not crazy about Potter. I could spend an entire vacation at Universal, not go into those lands, and be fine. But, there are a lot of crazed Potter fans that may want to go down to Florida and spend their entire day in Potterworld. For those folks they may wish to schedule their whole trip in order to catch everything.

Take this idea over to Lake Buena Vista and I think you may see the same thing for a Star Wars themed area of the Studios park. Maybe that is where they are going.

Lord Gonchar said:

I'm not sure if you're making it needlessly complicated just to challenge me or what.

It's not about you. It's not complicated either. My position is that they will never go 100% reservations, no matter how right you think you are. Not only do we know how badly it failed with the CP experiment, but Disney isn't going to neuter the feature they haven't turned on: paid Fastpass.

I'm not sure how what Gonch is saying would in any way neuter paid fastpass...

What value is there in selling something that's free?

None. But selling more access or quicker access is where the money is...

You beat me to it Rideman. I was just about to mention Cedar Point and the Ticket to Ride.

I think Jeff should go back and edit the link at the end of the original thread. I just hope nobody gets the idea to resurrect the continuation. If that happens we'll have to shoot it in the head.

I have to wonder how much of the customer push for reservations comes from FOMO, where people grab reservations because they believe they have to, then end up not needing it. I've seen that with FastLane passes, too...where people buy FastLane passes on-line because they are afraid the passes will sell out, then they get to the park and find out all the rides are walk-on. So people may not want to schedule every minute of their Disney vacation, but they wish they could schedule more...not because they want to, but because they are afraid they won't be able to do what they want if they don't.

FastPass is, in general, a poor solution to a very real problem. Aside from the ability to launch the upcharge FastPass, I honestly wonder if the long-term goal of NextGen isn't to redesign the park in such a way that FastPass becomes unnecessary...unless you want the exclusive VIP experience.

On a related note, one of the leading theories on this TSM experiment is that they are planning to add a second ride and want to do the Six Flags thing and make one ride FastPass only, the other for everyone else. It seems to me it would make more sense to set it up so that both queues could be diverted to both rides, to balance capacity.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I don't think Fastpass is a poor solution, though whether or not waiting in line is a "problem" depends on who you ask. The Disney parks are definitely unique in that there aren't a lot of attractions that have long waits to begin with, but those that do, a FP is welcome. The new system actually seems right, but it's hard to say if the adoption and usage is the same as the paper system. I read somewhere that the paper system was generally used on average 2.4 times per guest, which is lower than I would have expected considering the people who made it a sport to use as many as possible. As a local though, that number is probably our average, even if we book 3 for any given day.