No More Carnival Rides for Me!
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"All said I highly doubt I will ride anything like that at a carnival again. "
So you will ride Kamikaze's at parks? What is the difference since they are the exact same ride?
"IF (huge IF here) Markey really cared more about actual safety than about grabbing headlines, the CPSC would monitor THESE places instead of permanent parks.... "
They do.
"Basically anything that can be transported then put back up is unsafe. "
There is a large likelyhood that several of the rides at your home park are transportable. Many parks, from small ones to Six Flags often have one or more rides that can be racked up. In addition, you are ignoring countries like Germany that have arguably the best kept rides in the world on thier fair circuit. Lots of rides in American parks (from themer to small park) would never pass inspection for the German fairs.
I have said it before and will say it again, carnivals, like parks, vary from excellent to horrible. Some like Drew Expositions, Funtastic Shows and Spectacular Midways make many of the parks I have been to look like utter crap. To make a blanket statement that all carnivals are unsafe based on a few incidents is like saying that all parks are dangerous because of one or two events like the Demon getting caught upside down or the woman dying on Goliath. Are there some crappy carnivals out there, yes. But, there are some are a lot safer than the parks I have been to.
Huss, Zamperla and Zierer? These are as much, if not more, companies that built for the carnival market than the park one.
Huss- While they have focused on the park rides in the last few years, from roughly 1975-1995 at least half of thier output was portable rides.
Zamperla- In the US, Zamperla sells to many more carnivals than it does parks. They probably sell two rides to a carnival for every one they sell to parks.
Zierer- They made the bulk of their money at first selling portable Wave Swingers, then they moved into parks and developed other rides like the Flying Carpet for the park and carnival markets.
"for example most flats at your typical park such as PKD or SFA have some type of automatic or ratcheting restraint system which is less prone to failure as opposed to the restraint system on rides such as kamikazee which are more of a mechanical or latch type system which is more prone to failure. "
I will agree that the older rides with mechanical restraints are not as safe. But, I think that it is important to realize that this is simply older technology. The Zipper is from the late 1960's and the Kamikaze is from the early-to-mid 1980's. Personally I feel more secure on Mondial's Top Scan, until a few years ago strictly a carnival ride, than I do on many park rides that go upside down.
It is important to remember that, with the exception of coasters, most of the computerized safety systems were found on American midways before they were in parks. Zamperla's micro-lock system was found on more carnivals than at parks at first and KMG's excellecent computerized restraint lock system made its debut on carnival midways, both here and overseas, several years before they were in parks. In addition, Mondial developed the first computerized triple back up system for restraints that got TUV approval.
Adam, agreed that Carnivals/Fairs are "monitored", but as stated, it's not like the traveling fairs in Europe....we have different rules in each of the states, and it seems there's not the "comprehensive" program that would provide the level of safety that we currently see in the parks....operators can fail inspections in one state, and move to another where they very well may pass an inspection...
Portable rides, when installed and operated properly, can be as safe as any permanent ride....which I think was the point you were making....and I agree with that....
I was referring to your post about the CPSC. As far as I know, they do regulate the portable rides in the country. To quote Dave Althoff in an RRC post about the Remix accident, "Note that CPSC authority for the moment extends only to MOBILE rides in the USA." I do not know how much or to what extent, but it does seem that the CPSC does have some say in mobile ride regulation. Perhaps Rideman can fill us in more.
I heard on my local news this morning that there was an accident involving a carnival ride over the weekend at the state fair here in VA.
From the looks of the video that was shown it appears that a paratrooper type ride completely fell over as well as apart resulting in several injuries.
Once again here's proof that some if not most of the carnie rides just aren't as safe and as well set up/mantained as most of those found in fixed site permanent parks.
You know regardless of the CPSC, and all the various regulatory agencies for amusement rides, there is still that loften overlooked ride inspector that has the ultimate veto power on if yougo on a ride: YOU.
In the end it all comes down to "How safe do you, the individual rider, feel?" I don't beleive anybody can make that call for anybody else.
I'd like to point out an article on Rideman's site:
http://capital2.capital.edu/admin-staff/dalthoff/adventures/saferide.html
(You may have to do some cut/paste work to get that to work).
Anyway, the article in summary states that as with most things, trust your instinct and common sense, if a ride does not look/sound/smell/feel/or taste right, then by all means don't ride. The article then goes on to relate the story of a carnival patron who spotted something on a ride that didn't look right, soon thereafter at a different venue that same carnival suffered two ride accidents, neither of which on the ride that alarmed the carnival patron. (Moral: If you see something you know is wrong or looks blatnatly wrong, be leary of the things you can't see)
I admit that I have no technical or mechanical knowledge of amusement rides, but I do have a certain practical experience that comes from visiting numerous amusement ride venues and therefore have a general concept of what a lot of rides should look and sound like. In my own case I use that experience to guide me in ride/run away decisions at carnivals. As always look out for your own safety, and take a look around the midway before riding anything.
Also LOLNOL brings up a very good point, a lot of amusement parks have on their grounds somewhere a carnival ride. Sure the various ride manufacturers sometimes offer a special 'park version', but often times they either apply 'theming' or a disguise to hide the fact they are carnival rides, other parks just set it up as is. Even Disney just installed some Reverchon Crazy Mouse coasters.
Carnvial operators have the same motivation to offer the rider a safe experience as parks do. Serious injuries and deaths are bad for business.
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David Bowers
Mayor, Coasterville
So a few hours ago you said that the rides were not designed well, but now that has changed to thier set-up and maitenence? Interesting.
Some if not most? While there are probably more accidents each year at carnivals it never ceases to amaze me how people can make statements like that without appropriate facts to back them up, yet when someone like Markey makes a blanket statement about parks being unsafe we rush to slaughter him. Carnivals and parks both must be taken on a case-by-case basis and saying an industry is dangerous because of a few media reports (sound familiar?) just seems to be rather short-sighted. Like Markey, you seem to be willing to decry an entire industry while only some of it has problems.
The company was Inland Empire Amusements/Royal West Shows based out of Idaho...
This particular KamiKaze has been around Vegas for several years. I remember first seeing it back in 1993 at the State Fair.
It has ratcheting OTSR's but with an air release. The lap bar is the old style that locks into place with a lever and then is secured by the door.
One thing that could have contributed to this event is the design of the front row. There is a lot more clearance between the person and the back up lap bar here than in the other rows. If the clearance was more like that of the mid rows, maybe the OTSR would have been held close enough to her body so that she wouldnt bounce around?
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The ride has a shoulder bar, and a sort of chest-high secondary that will keep the shoulder bar from opening up all the way and that will give the rider something to grab onto. If the rider slides forward in the seat just a little, she's out from under the shoulder bar, completely unrestrained.
Whoever thought that a shoulder bar, essentially by itself, was an appropriate restraint for this kind of ride, needs to have his head examined. Or better yet he needs to take a ride on a Loop-O-Plane and see how to do it right...
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Remember the old Super Loops and Ring of Fire?(back when they had the cages instead of the open air seats like they have now)
Lots of cusion, felt very secure!
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"ok everyone go ahead and pull down on your shoulder restraint so you feel nice and stuck!"
rollergator said:
Portable rides, when installed and operated properly, can be as safe as any permanent ride....which I think was the point you were making....and I agree with that...."
Yeah, but when the whole crew installing the ride has like 6 teeth between 'em all it makes you kind of wonder...
On an unrelated note...
HOW 'BOUT THEM CHARGERS, BABY?!!!
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Coasters and Chronic
What a Combo!
Actually djvicdogg, if they've only got 6 teeth between them, they are pretty old and experienced...not too stupid to put a ride together right. In fact, I'd trust one of the old geezers before I'd trust some 20 something these days.
Regardless, I still believe portable rides should be inspected daily. The difference between a "carnival" ride in a permanent site in a park, and a portable ride is most parks inspect their rides daily. There is much less stress on parts from constantly taking rides apart and putting them back together again.
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I'd rather die living than live like I'm dead
In some jurisdictions, carnival rides get more regulatory inspection...that is, inspection by state inspectors or by independent inspectors working for the state...than park rides do. In Florida, for example, State inspectors inspect every carnival ride at every set-up, but they NEVER inspect the amusement park rides in parks employing more than 1,000 employees (Hi-Ho!). But regardless of the regulatory situation, industry standards dictate that every ride be inspected before every operating day, whether fixed or mobile. ASTM requires this, most manufacturers require this, insurance carriers require this, most states that require anything require this. And besides, ride operators...parks or carnivals...don't get up in the morning wondering how they can endanger their customers today. Accidents are bad for business, so ride operators tend to avoid them whenever possible. Regardless of what the controlling legal authorities say.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Someone mentioned above... "Inspect" the ride your self. Does it look safe? Does it look like the Ops know what they are doing? Does it "sound safe?" Of course, you should also do this at parks as well.
As stated, some companies are better than others. Currently, the York Fair is going on in York PA. I was just there last night. Reithoffer Shows supplies the rides for this fair. For travelling rides, they look pretty good. You don't see any duct tape holding things together, etc. Also, they appear to be clean and well kept. While the ops do not look like "the cream of the crop", I have seen some ops at parks that are scarrier looking than some of these guys. Also, over the past three years, I have recognized the same ops working the same rides. I have no problem getting on anything here. However, if you look at the Roll Back entry for today, you will see about the 7 year old boy who died after riding the Flitzer roller coaster at the York Fair last year. With other more far reaching effects occuring on Sept 11 last year, the follow up to this incident was forgotten. My wife and I rode that same coaster two days before this happened. We also said that if the kid was seated as he was supposed to be, there is no way he could have hit the front of the car as he did (which is what caused the internal injuries). The investigation that followed found that the ride was operating properly, there was no mechanical failure, and there was no negligence on the part of the ops. It stops short of saying "rider error", but, like I have said... "if he was seated as he was supposed to be..." As a follow up, this year the Flitzer is not at the fair (not sure if Reithoffer decided not to use it or if the fair requested that it not be there).
Then there is the little Jefferson Carnival (mid July I think) in southern York County. These rides are a disgrace. First, they look ancient. Second, they appear to be held together with tape and make shift repairs. There is no way I would get on anything there.
Keeping all of that in mind, I would place Reithoffer's operations on equal par to many parks that I have visited (and even above a handful).
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Kind of hard to take a post as objective if a park or coaster name is part of the "user name"
RideMan said:
"If the rider is skinny enough, it doesn't even require a failure of the primary for that ride to just dump the rider right out of the seat."
We *are* still talking about the Kamikazee right? Well I for one can attest that those bars are not *nearly* restrictive enough. Back in 1993, I was about 5'10 and all of 130# dripping wet (yes, I was skinny as hell...not too far from that now). I rode a carnie Kamikazee and the op stopped the ride upside down for several seconds (+30 at least). My butt was a full five-six inches of the seat (I could fit my fist in the space between seat and "seat"). It would have been quite easy for me to have slipped out. Good thing I have a burning fear of heights as was thus clinging to the bar with a death-grip. Not fun!
lata,
jeremy
--who thinks the carnie was just jealous that the hot young white girl wanted me, not him..
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