my 2c on the seatbelt issue

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CoasterFanVt2003 said:

I most definitely do NOT agree with Coasterdude318 on this point.

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How can you not agree with me? I quoted the report to highlight what it said. It's ridiculous to argue that point. Disagree with the report if you wish (although I think you'd be foolish to argue with people who actually have tested the effectiveness of the restraint) but arguing with me on that point is ignorant.

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Despite what the Safety Board report said in Massachusetts, there was never a d*mn thing wrong with the original restraint system. I have ridden S:ROS at SFNE many dozens of times as a bigger rider and never once did I ever even BEGIN to feel as though I were unsafe or coming off the ride.

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Oh there's a true measure of safety; because you "never felt unsafe", the restraints are not unsafe. That's BS, and everyone knows it. In the past few years, four people have been thrown from Intamin T-Bar restraints, three of them larger riders. Do you think that's just bizarre coincidence? Do you really think the cause of all four incidents was that they were not properly restrained by the ride-ops? That's funny, then, because you don't hear of people being thrown from B&M or Vekoma or Gerstlauer rides because they were "improperly restrained". It's only on Intamin rides where ride-ops forget to check restraints? Please. Either there is just one hell of a coincidence here, or there's a major flaw with the restraints. I think it's clear it's the latter.

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I will give Coasterdude318 that if Mr. Mordarsky did not fit properly into the restraints he should not have ridden, but THAT is a ride attendant issue, *not* a restraint issue.

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Correct. Larger guests are not able to safely fit into the restraints, and cannot be allowed to ride. So why are you complaining when the ride attendants turn you away?

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4 years of operation with not a single guest coming off S:ROS does not say "unsafe" to me

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Really? I wasn't aware you took exit surveys of every single rider to ask if they felt unsafe during the ride. I'm sure Mr. Mordarsky felt unsafe during his ride. You seem to be arguing that one death in four years is acceptable. The park and the industry feel otherwise.

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Yes, I will give you that perhpaps the T-bar restraint system was not geared toward very large people, but the fact of the matter is that MANY very heavy people rode S:ROS over the years and not one of them came flying off.

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Wrong - one did. And two other larger guests were thrown from other rides with the same restraints. What does it take for you to recognize that there was a problem??

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asked an employee near the test seat if the new restraints killed the airtime, and the answer was a resounding YES.

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The forces of the ride have not changed. You're still going to get the same sense of airtime that you got with the other restraints.

-Nate

Amen, Nate!

However those 3 larger guests did were not able to buckle the old belts; so now because they couldnt buckle the older belts they need newer smaller belts? Logic says you crazyness says I ;).

They weren't able to buckle the belts? Says who? Mr. Mordarsky rode with his seatbelt buckled. The SFDL incident happened before seatbelts, so we don't know whether or not he would have fit with the seatbelts (although my point still stands that clearly the T-bar did not keep him restrained). Finally, AFAIK, anything involving seatbelts in the Knott's incident is entirely speculation. So, what gives?

-Nate

HEY FOR ALL YOU COMPLAINERS OUT THERE (INCLUDING ME) GO TO THE FOLLOWING LINK AND SIGN MY PETITION THAT WILL BE DELIVERED TO CEDAR POINT NEXT MONTH! http://www.petitiononline.com/1CedarPt/petition.html

People, a petition is not going to change the focus of the modifications here. This problem is going to probably only be around here for this season only, as Cedar Point will probably do a major train overhaul off-season. Three deaths, and one major injury is a reason for an overhaul. It just has to happen, even if many disagree with it.

There's a world of roller coasters out there- enjoy them.

PS: This is about the only group complaining; maybe you need some support for it. (Get more support!) *** Edited 5/30/2004 11:26:41 PM UTC by coasterwiz***

I cant remember where I read it (but have a sneaking suspecion it was the Boston Globe) said that the man had been denied a ride earlier because he couldnt buckle. He came back later in the day and the employee (heres where the ride op error happened) didnt check the belts before dispatching.

But the point is it did buckle because he was wearing it during the ride. It distinctly says so in the incident report.

-Nate

It has been pointed out that the change in policy is due to a factory service memorandum. Under Ohio law CP must comply with the changes set forth by Intamin in this document. No amount of whining, complaining or producing of petitions is going to change their minds, because they can't. The only way that this situation is going to be rectified is a re-engineering of the restraint system as a whole. Just who will do it remains to be seen. Last I heard Intamin is still saying that there is nothing wrong with the restraint system, that the accidents are due to operator errors, and the parks not following the manufactureres guidelines.

That petition is completely retarded... plain & simple.

There's nothing wrong with the restraints... and the new ones are going to cause a LOT of complaints not by whiny coaster enthusiasts... hell no... but by a lot of regular folks who will complain of the uncomfortable shin guards & the extra metal side bars which totally limit any leg movement.

I sincerely hope Cedar Point doesn't go this route with Millennium Force because the coaster is just fine. The restraints are just fine. The ride-ops do an exceptional job of checking & double-checking the restraints to make sure everyone is secure...

...and if the same ride-ops were working at New England during that one fateful day... none of this would have ever happened.

I think everything has gotten blown totally out of proportion. "Nipplegate II: The Amusement Industry".

Lossing weight to ride the Force..

10 days go.... 251

now.... 241

44 days from now... have to be 220

im 6'3... wish me luck..

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How can you not agree with me? I quoted the report to highlight what it said. It's ridiculous to argue that point. Disagree with the report if you wish (although I think you'd be foolish to argue with people who actually have tested the effectiveness of the restraint) but arguing with me on that point is ignorant.

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Coasterdude318, there's no need to become caustic, unpleasant, or insulting in your reponses - I'm sorry but there is no clear evidence to me that the State of Mass. safety investigation report is the infallible source of truth on the situation (I'll wager that many of the people involved in the report's assembly have never even ridden S:ROS). I have the right to disagree, as does anyone else on this board....

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Oh there's a true measure of safety; because you "never felt unsafe", the restraints are not unsafe. That's BS, and everyone knows it

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Who declared you the ultimate source on this issue, anyway? I find your tone derisive & needlessly insulting, to say the least - I was voicing an opinion (we ARE allowed to do that on this board are we not?!) based on my multiple experiences on the ride, nothing more. I was simply speaking from my own personal ride experience, and that of my ride partners.

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Yes, I will give you that perhpaps the T-bar restraint system was not geared toward very large people, but the fact of the matter is that MANY very heavy people rode S:ROS over the years and not one of them came flying off.

Wrong - one did. And two other larger guests were thrown from other rides with the same restraints. What does it take for you to recognize that there was a problem??

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On this point I'm sorry I did not specify SFNE's S:ROS, to which I was referring. I personally am not in the least convinced that what ejected 2 overweight riders at the 2 parks on S:ROS type coasters was poor restraint design. I believe it was incorrect applicaton/verification of the restraints by the ride attendants. The S:ROS rides were not designed for every rider on the face of the Earth, but that is why (supposedly) ride ops are given formal training in these areas. Yes, it is a good thing to have a fool-proof system where rider safety does not depend on ride op judgment, but I think the park need not have gone this far to ensure that in this case. Shortening the seatbelt is ludicrous, in my opinion, first because the new flip-top seatbelt is eminently more vulnerable to involuntary release than the 2-tab release system of the original ones, and secondly, because the additional gauge of the lapbar-attached lapbar locking into a receptacle is sufficient evidence of eligibility to ride, without a seatbelt test of eligibility.

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Correct. Larger guests are not able to safely fit into the restraints, and cannot be allowed to ride. So why are you complaining when the ride attendants turn you away?

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I have had no REASON to complain up until this point, because I have not had the slightest problem boarding and riding. This new paranoia that seems to have overtaken the parks is irrational, in my view, fueled by pressure from their insurers; but I do believe things will scale down by next season - I do NOT advocate building rides that accommodate every single body style out there, but I do believe the manufacturers (and parks) should understand that they are building for a public quite different from that which they encounter in Europe, and begin to act accordingly. We obviously differ on this issue, but I respect your right to an opinion.

What does it matter of the MA investigation team has never ridden the ride? An investigation was done into the effectiveness of the restraint. The people who investigated found it to not be effective. Like I said, you're free to argue with that, but you sound ignorant.

You question who made me some sort of authority (missing, of course, that I'm only arguing for the people who actually WERE given the authority) while I have to wonder who made you an authority. You can rant on and on about how the restraints worked fine, but the evidence clearly points to the contrary. You have no professional opinion to state that the restraints were safe based on your experiences. Just as I have no place estimating how much a house is worth, you have no place determining the effectiveness of roller coaster restraints.

You don't think four people being thrown from identical restraints is one hell of a coincidence? You failed to address the obvious; people aren't thrown from other manufacturer's products because of a failure to be properly secured by ride attendants. Why does it only happen on Intamin rides? The answer is that it doesn't. People aren't being thrown out because of being improperly restrained by attendants, they're being thrown because of a poorly designed lapbar.

You're correct that the S:ROS restraints weren't designed for everyone. But now you're complaining that ride-ops are telling people they can't ride. What's up with that? What, exactly, is wrong with having a seatbelt to judge who can and cannot safely ride. Why is it wrong now when it (apparently) wasn't before? You're complaining because you can't ride now, when you never should have been allowed to ride in the first place. That hardly seems fair to critisize the parks for following the manufacturer's guidelines, AND for doing what they can to insure the safety of their guests.

-Nate

I would just like to point out that 4 failures out of millions would be cause for celibration in most fields. Allthough unfortunatly we are dealing with human life here so stringent demands must be made.

Coasterdude, pure question for you what how would you react if you went to the park with your favorite coaster, which you have ridden countless times, tomorrow and you were turned away from it because according to the ride op you are not safely restrained how would you feel? I bet you would be argueing that the park is dead wrong too.

Second of all the facts are there are no facts. Your precious report states "rider error, ride op error, restraint error and construction error" those topics cover every possible thing that could have gone wrong and is legalize for "we dont have a clue." Six Flags/Intamin are pushing out the PR about it being due to obesity because because if blame is placed on anything else puts them at fault and prone to lawsuits and loads of even worse PR.

Finally please realize that this is an internet message board and dont take eveything so personal, smile a little bit :). *** Edited 6/1/2004 5:30:26 AM UTC by Touchdown***

If somebody was thrown out of my favorite coaster because of a body type similar to mine, I would understand why people of that body type were being restricted from riding. Then, if it was that important to me, I would do what I could to change my body type to make sure I fit (short of any sort of surgery).

If you think the report really stands for "we don't have a clue", that's fine, and that's your opinion, but I think it's ridiculous to think there's no problem with the former restraints when there have been so many incidents.

-Nate

I think that I could answer for Coasterdude here, and say that my response would be that it sucks, but if the manufacturer determines that it wasn't safe, I would live with it.

I find it odd that CoasterFanVt has been arguing how safe the restraints are in this thread while complaining that he can no longer have space between himself and the lapbar to get the "airtime" with in the news posting. Here is a guy who is arguing that the ride ops need to make sure everyone is secured, but if he doesn't get his "airtime space" it will kill the ride.

I'm sorry, but a lot of people on these boards do not want to face the facts. Please try to argue one of these points:

- four people thrown out of even ten million is HORRIBLE if you are dealing with a roller coaster restraint system. To say that is acceptable is completely insane. An average park gives out somewhere between 7 and 10 rides per person per day. If you take 10 million rides and divide it by seven, you get 1,428,571 guests per year. By this argument, a park like Six Flags Great Adventure would be safe if two people flew out of rides per year. Disney's Magic Kingdom would have 10 people per year. Even smaller parks should expect a person to fly out every so often. Overall, over 100 people would fall off rides per year. This is "acceptable" to you people??

- A ride restraint system does not need to be made so that it is self-regulating -- that is what those ride ops have jobs for anyways, right? Uh... I'm sorry, but it simply isn't that easy. You would be surprised if you worked at a park how many people try to get those extra two inches in their lap bar so they can "float" on the ride... and how many of them are enthusiasts who have come to boards and posted methods of how to avoid getting stapled by the ride ops. How can enthusiasts especially argue that it is fully the ride ops responsibility to check the restraints and ensure people are locked in when this is the group the tries to avoid them the most? And no, I'm sorry, but having rode a ride 25 times does not make you any better than anyone else about knowing how to ride it. The restraint system should have that safety built into it, so regardless of who is riding or how they try to go around the ride ops, they can not somehow slip out.

- It is not easy to design a restraint to accomodate everyone. If it was, there would be restraints that did just that, but when you are dealing with restraints that can accomodate a 6' 450 lb person, a 7'6" 270lb person and a 4'6" 90 lb person, they simply can't all work the same. In the sake of safety, the restraints are designed as large as possible, but still keeping in mind the ability to correctly restrain the 4'6" 90 lb person because you can't judge someone is too small like you can that someone is too big. And what a media field day that would be. I can see it now, "New Coaster Opens for 200 lb + people only!!" Most of the parks that are operating are catering toward teenagers that can fit into the restraints, and that would completely alienate them.

I'm not trying to start any wars here, and I'm not trying to jump in, but this is a really goofy issue and this is one of the few groups that I figured would actually "get it" when it came to the modifications. It comes as a surprise to me that very few people think that the modifications are anything more than "what the insurance company told them to do," when in fact, it is what I believe to be a temporary patch to a problem with Intamin rides in general. To this point, the parks that run Intamin rides with T-Bar restraints have been very, very lucky that only four people have fell out, and the other parks running rides manufacturered by Intamin in the last ten or so years are very, very lucky that more people haven't fallen out of those.

Intamin has the technology to make their rides safer but hasn't felt the need to use it yet. The HUGE, very visible modifications done to rides like Wicked Twister, S:UE / Venom and V2 are disturbing in this world of high-powered computers. If you ever get the chance to see an Intamin and a B&M, Vekoma or even Arrow in person, the differences are really surprising. It floors me to think that Intamin has managed to sell so much over the past ten years while slowly putting more and more responsibility into the hands of ride ops.

Intamin has been extremely lucky that there hasn't been more deaths from their rides, and not just the ones with T-Bar restraints. The horrible accident at SFNE was a wake-up call to the company that Intamin needs to invest more time and money into creating safer ride vehicles, and we have to all live with the changes that this makes to our favorite rides for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, lets just sit back and attempt to be patient so that the thing that we are all here for -- coasters -- can continue to operate without more lunatics like Markey trying to shut them all down. *** Edited 6/1/2004 6:07:04 AM UTC by thecoasterguy***

What would be wrong with retractable belt's like beast has? These things are long as heck weve pulled them all the way out at work before. They lock in place like car belts to properly fit the size of the person they are holding it sounds alot better then what intamin has done.

I am pretty sure the retractable belts that you are thinking of do not "lock" into place, but are just like a normal car seat belt... meaning that if you pull it slowly, it will get looser and looser.

Putting controls onto those types of seat belts so that the ride can monitor if they are in place is not an easy thing to do either. There aren't many rides that I can think of, and no coasters that use computer controlled belts.

On top of all of this, seat belts in every non-Intamin ride are supposed to be a "redundant" safety feature, where if the regular harness were to fail during the ride, the seatbelt would keep the person in place. For instance, on a B&M invert, if the harness were to completely stop functioning during the ride, the seatbelt would keep the harness low enough so that the smallest riding guest still wouldn't be able to fall out. Seat belts are simply not the only fix that these trains need.

I work on beast lolthe retractable belt's lock when you stop pulling them out and they have to be fed ALL the way back into the mechanism to be pulled out again. They for the most part fit everyone perfectly. They also will go around people that the lap bar wont even go down one click on so there is no question as to a big person not beling able to ride.

Coasterdude318, I'm sick and tired of the nastiness exhibited on this board - and you are way out of line to call me ignorant, to say the LEAST. You do not know me, and I have not made any such horribly negative inferences against you - why be so horribly arrogant and say such things to a fellow enthusiast?

Honestly it's people like you that make my throw up my hands and say to hell with these forums - you have the right to disagree, but please don't become insulting and caustic in your reponses. Seriously. I'm outta here - my opinions and views are obviously not respected in any way, shape, or form. I don't need this kind of abuse in my life- I was simply trying to share; this is insane.