Lap Bars vs. Horse Collars

Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:19 PM
Call me crazy, but I think that now that steel looping coasters are so smooth that you dont really need the horse collars. If one's head never hits them, and their shoulders stay clear, why have them. Wouldn't a lap bar suffice? All that touches the rider on a horse collar is the part that hits their waist.
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:23 PM
Your right there. I think its kind of annoying w/ the headrest there for no reason.
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:28 PM
Well, I don't seem to mind them as much as other people do, but I wouldn't have a problem without them. On some coasters however, it is neccesary, and frankly I would feel insecure without them. There are times, especially on B&M inverts entering a loop, when you will get thrusted forward into your restraints.

This is a classic debate.
OTSR Vs. Lap Bar
Wood Vs. Steel
CP Vs. MM

There isn't neccesarily a clear cut answer.

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I'd Rather Be Riding Rollercoasters
www.mycoasters.homestead.com/mycoasters.html
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:30 PM
Well, you will never know when you may need them... Say that the Demon @ SFGAm had only lap bars. Well, with the freak accident that happened in 98 when the train became stuck upside-down for hours, I'm not sure if lap bars would be enough, especially not seat belts! So, if there is an inversion, i think OTSR's are rather important, you never know when something may go wrong.
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:51 PM
LL the Sky Whirl, lap bars would have been better (and where did seat belts come into this? No way would a coaster with inversions be certified by saftey inspectors if it only had a seat belt...) They can keep you in. And a coaster getting stuck upside-down doesn't happen every day, either. If you were on the Demon then, would you have wanted all your weight on your lap, or on your shoulders? You lap can have lots of weight for quite a long time, but usually shoulders get sore fast, and it doesn't take much weight. And lastly, to prove a point, if it is a bad idea to have lapbars, why was FOF refit with them? It has lots of inversions on that, and it has a chance that it could be stuck upside-down. Don't say the roughness was the reason, Demon is quite rough, itself.

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V2, Deja Vu... how can it be better? Add Viper! Oh, wait. It's already there!
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 6:49 PM
Demon is nowhere near as rough as FOF was.

I have never been able to mention the name OL:FOF to enthusiasts without being *****ed to about how damn rough it was.

Demon, though, is a good example of an Arrow looper, believe it or not. No B&M, but it's smooth for what it is.

I feel that there's a line that has to be looked at to discern between lapbars and OTSRs.
For example, on most big multiloopers, I would not feel the necessary security without the OTSRs, especialls any of which contain an in line twist/barrel roll.

My idea, don't get rid of them. Just redo them. In fact, Arrow's are very well done with the minimal height and girth of the restraint. Some work, some don't. Some get in the way, but from my experiences with most coasters (all B&M, the new Arrows) they don't interfere in the least bit.
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Loopscrew.com
It's coming...
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:14 PM
GenuineCynic, have you ridden Flight of Fear yet this season? I maintain, as I have for as long as anybody in rec.roller-coaster can remember, that shoulder bars are utterly unnecessary on sit-down looping coasters. Period. Without exception. Flight of Fear merely happens to be the first looping coaster to prove my point.

--Dave Althoff, Jr., who notes that we've been through all the arguments in the past month...
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:18 PM
Maybe it's just me but I think inversions can get old fast. I just think there is nothing like being high and going fast and putting my hands up.

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"Nippy!! Where the hell are ya?"
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:22 PM
How many times have we gone over this? Anyway, no need for Horsecollars, and Flight of Fear proves it. Hopefully parks and designers will take notice and start a new trend.

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Home Park: Knotts Berry Farm!
but also Disneyland and DCA
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:22 PM

Long Live The SKY WHIRL said:
"Well, you will never know when you may need them... Say that the Demon @ SFGAm had only lap bars. Well, with the freak accident that happened in 98 when the train became stuck upside-down for hours, I'm not sure if lap bars would be enough, especially not seat belts! So, if there is an inversion, i think OTSR's are rather important, you never know when something may go wrong."

It's been said before, but I'll say it again. At a Walabi park in Europe a coaster got stuck upside down with just lap bars, and everybody was fine!
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- Peabody
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Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:36 PM
Wow, deja vu, and I don't mean the coaster... ;)

http://www.coasterbuzz.com/forums/thread.asp?ForumID=11&TopicID=5466

among other threads...

(Just pointing out to people an interesting discussion they may have missed out on)

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--Greg

http://www.pobox.com/~gregleg/
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Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:31 AM
As an operator of a Demon rollercoaster in my opinion Lap Bars would not be an option.

We have a height restiction of 122 cm (i'm not sure what that is in feet) which allows quite small kids onto the ride, I Believe lap bars would not be able to retrain a child safely.

Lap bars only restrain at one point across the waist, while the harness at three points, shoulders chest and wasit. Harnesses prevent excessive upper body movement, esp in corksrews, bommerangs etc.

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Home Park: Wonderland Sydney, Australia
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Saturday, April 21, 2001 10:34 AM
An argument against the accident that happened on Demon is on a coaster somewhere (I can't remember where), a coaster with lap bars got stuck upside down in a loop, no one was hurt, unlike on Demon.

The collar bone is weak, especially compared to the hip bone. Would you rather have your hip bone or shoulders holding you in? If I had to choose, I would choose my legs.

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MF Drops-15
SOB Rides-2
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Saturday, April 21, 2001 11:04 AM
Aussie Op, check out some of the previous posts on the subject. You might find them quite interesting. (Your Demon rollercoaster is different than other Demon rollercoasters, but there are looping coasters that do the same elements as your Demon with just a lap bar.)

The bottom line on the subject is there are dozens of looping coasters without shoulder restraints, and they are perfectly safe. Two coasters have 4 inversions that are not vertical loops, and they are safe. Many go through loops backwards without OTSRs and are safe. The most convincing thing is the Walabi coaster that got stuck upsidedown with just lapbars, and everybody was fine, much more so than Demon, which had a few minor injuries and a big lawsuit.


Aussie Op, I am interested in why you say lap bars can't restrain a child safely. Many believe the opposite to be true. On a small child no contact is made with the shoulders. Also, why must upper body movement be restrained in order for safety? The most strong, wicked upper body movement is produced by woodies, where there have never been shoulder restraints.
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- Peabody
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 10:51 AM
The only element that truly requires the collar is a corkscrew due to it's slow speed, however as demonstrated on Riddler and Mantis, the speed is pickign up on those as well. Also, on the large B&M loops there could be a problem at the top. A little more speed and a lap bar will do the trick.

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Oooooh, my freekin' head!!!
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 1:27 PM
Skyboss, there are 2 coasters with corkscrews and just a lap bar, so no, corkscrews do not require lap bars.

Large B&M loops would not be unsafe with just a lap bar. If a coaster can get stuck upside down with just lap bars, then why wouldn't a big B&M loop be safe?

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- Peabody
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 1:59 PM
I bet there are millions of you who find a harness so comfy that you try to bang you head against it at the beginning of a ride. I find these harnesses on two rides: Mr. Freeze and FOF.
Then it comes to the smoothness of the ride. Mr. Freeze is as smooth as glass and FOF is bumpy. FOF deserved the lap bars, and Mr. Freeze is just fine without lap bars. There is just one set of rides I think need lap bars: every boomerang coaster ever built!

I'm riding Titan on April 29....only celebration pass holder only!
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 3:02 PM
For any of you that have ridden BKF, you do not want to be going through that loop with just a lap bar, I would. lol. Major hang time.

Also, don't FoF lapbars have a part like FD's that holds in your ankles too? That's safe enough for me!

One more thing, I have heard from many people that DL at SFWoA is the smoothest Arrow looping.

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"Villain-Once You Drop, The Fun Don't Stop!"~SFWoA Rules In 2001~X Marks The Spot In 2001(SFWoA)~With SFWoA ANYTHING Is Possible!
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 3:07 PM
When I went to Dorney Park last year it just did not feel right without horsecollars on a rollercoaster.
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Sunday, April 22, 2001 3:07 PM
I agree with you s, inversions aren't that great at all and hills are much better. You don't even notice your're upsidedown at all. Newbe riders are always wow'd or scared of inversions, but now in these days coasters are going towards new innovations and not inversions as much.

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We are the keepers of the sacred words, Ni!, Peng!, and Nuuuuuwwwom!
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